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koyota Member

From: Japan Registered: 2009-03-28 Posts: 44

I've given it all I have in learning Japanese and now I'm at a loss as what to do. Breaking my immersion to come out here and ask for advice. I'm literally willing to pay someone to give me advice if you have some type of valid background that you can give advice from.

I really don't care how painful the method is, I'm much more interested in efficiency in learning the language then having fun(a socio-linguistics book is far more interesting to me then a movie anyway).

So let me put this nice and simple in bullet points

- I passed JLPT1, I can read just about any modern day book and understand 90%(When I mean understand I mean I know the vocab out of context) of it without a dictionary, generally only idioms tripping me up.

- Jlpt1 was nice in that it tangible goal to work towards and I could measure my progress, now I'm just stumbling around learning kobun, etc.

- My listening is poor(as it is in English too) I confuse sounds, miss out on hearing particles and generally everything goes too quickly for me, with subtitles I'm good to go. 2.a For someone that knows all the vocab already, but can't hear very well: is it better to watch with subtitles or better to watch, then read the script? / My A.D.D. Makes it very easy for me to just kinda zone out when watching/listening to things, this isn't a problem with reading

- I live in Japan, Have a valid Visa till 2012, Just finished a 6 month stay at a language school(upper level course), which wasn't very productive - I literally only probably said no more then 100 sentences the entire time in the class, and maybe wrote an essay every two weeks that I got feedback on, rest of the time I might as well have been watching a youtube lecture about grammar rules/vocab I already know. b. if you ask me to produce a sentence using this grammar/vocab! I can do it, but otherwise the vocab/grammar generally doesn't float to my head.

- I can't properly speak the language in real time, To top it off I'm incredibly anti-social, get extremly Flustered/anxious when talking Japanese, Get stuck trying to remember the difference between complex vocab/ kanji 熟語, when saying something like 小さい　would work. mix around kanji-souds in words when speaking, and make pathetic beginner level grammar mistakes in every sentence.
Considering possibly trying to get anti-anxiety pills as solution. Everyone says get out and talk to people/ join clubs, but how/where?

Now that my language school is over, I'm just sitting in my room in Japan reading literature, linguistics and Sociology books(obviously in Japanese). I know this isn't the way to success. I saved up a good amount of money to fulfill my dream of Learning Japanese, I'm willing to go to pretty much any lengths to get the language down.

so please, what can I do?

Thank you kindly

Last edited by koyota (2010 March 10, 4:01 am)

bebio Member

From: Lisbon Registered: 2008-08-19 Posts: 94

Well, the Metropolis magazine/website has a lot of ads for people looking for language exchange in the Tokyo area. I recently contacted one person, and we will start meeting in April, so I will see how that goes. If it is just one person, and the atmosphere is a quiet cafe, I think its easier to fend off the anxiety. Metropolis also has ads for clubs like photography, etc.
This might seem weird, but joining a taiko club, a dance class or an exercise class in a gym might help reduce the stress as well, and you might make new friends. Mixi's English Only community regularly lists regular international parties (although their effectiveness is debatable), or other types of gatherings. I did join a koto club, because I want to learn the instrument, but although I am regularly required to talk to japanese people in this context, my anxiety levels do get higher than normal, and I think I would prefer to just bang some drums instead.

Not sure what else to recommend. So far, talking to my Japanese friends in cafes every week seems to be doing the trick.

Pauline Member

From: Sweden Registered: 2005-10-04 Posts: 134

koyota wrote:
- My listening is poor(as it is in English too) I confuse sounds, miss out on hearing particles and generally everything goes too quickly for me, with subtitles I'm good to go. 2.a For someone that knows all the vocab already, but can't hear very well: is it better to watch with subtitles or better to watch, then read the script? / My A.D.D. Makes it very easy for me to just kinda zone out when watching/listening to things, this isn't a problem with reading

[...]

- I can't properly speak the language in real time, To top it off I'm incredibly anti-social, get extremly Flustered/anxious when talking Japanese, Get stuck trying to remember the difference between complex vocab/ kanji 熟語, when saying something like 小さい　would work. mix around kanji-souds in words when speaking, and make pathetic beginner level grammar mistakes in every sentence.

Nukemarine made a thread about how to use subs2srs to improve your listening skills. By exposing yourself to a lot of dialogue, you might also be able to improve you speaking skills by looking at how people express themselves in different situations.

Why AJATT does not work (for my listening skills) (Nukemarine's thread)
Use subs2srs to Create Anki Decks... (thread about subs2srs)
Drama Rankings: Autumn 2009 Winter 2010 (recently aired dramas)
D-Addicts (link to subtitles in the menu on the left)

JapanesePod101 Sponsor

zoletype Member

From: 大阪 Registered: 2008-03-09 Posts: 73

I didn't see where you are located, but if it's in a city there are lots of things you can do.

The best, that I can think of, is look for volunteer teachers and the like. There are several that I know of (in Osaka). One is red cross organised. On some nights its a language exchange, but on others it's purely for people who want to learn Japanese. Lots of volunteers there, and they were all keen to do help me out in whatever i wanted. If I wanted to show them a textbook that was fine, but if I just wanted to chat about whatever, that was fine too. And I think for you that's probably what would be best.

Look for these volunteers who want to teach. There are quite a few groups like this. Going there, you can see if you connect with the people, and just go at your own pace. Explain what you are looking for, (a conversation partner, someone to correct you) and go at it. Going to Bars and the like is all well and good if you are a social person, but most people are gonna be like "OH WOW, TEACH ME ENGLISH!". At least that's often the case if you go anywhere where foreigners frequent.

mezbup Member

From: sausage lip Registered: 2008-09-18 Posts: 1681 Website

koyota wrote:
- I can't properly speak the language in real time, To top it off I'm incredibly anti-social, get extremly Flustered/anxious when talking Japanese, Get stuck trying to remember the difference between complex vocab/ kanji 熟語, when saying something like 小さい　would work. mix around kanji-souds in words when speaking, and make pathetic beginner level grammar mistakes in every sentence.

woah that's a perfectly accurate description of my spoken Japanese too. I can understand where you're coming from when you say that then...

I go to a conversation night that's held twice a month and from that I'm meeting various Japanese people that live in my community (don't live in Japan atm) and I'm also making friends that I hang out with outside of these events.

There's 2 ways that are working to improve my output and that is to rip an audio clip of a sentence I did catch and do want to output (if only for the pattern) and play it on repeat just saying it along with the character til it's firmly in my brain... I tend to spout these off during the day at random times when they pop into my head... for some reason It works.

Secondly, my output deck going from English - Japanese has really saved my ass and delivered a nice, smooth, appropriate sentence that was accurate in both grammar and meaning right into the conversation when I would have been stuck for words otherwise.

I firmly believe with some serious attention devoted to employing these methods would effectively see my improve at a rate similar to that which my reading did when focusing on nothing but that. My problem is currently I'm studying so hard for KanKen I'm devoting literally (lit.) 1% of my time to my output by comparison.

All I can say is give it a shot and go hardcore and see if in 3 months you can't get a whopping improvement.

I can be shy (due to anxiety) too and it's only compounded by worrying about speaking like a brain-dead 2 year old and often that can't be helped. I notice a big difference when talking to friends or people I'm comfortable with and it's just not there...

頑張ってください。

zoletype Member

From: 大阪 Registered: 2008-03-09 Posts: 73

Oh, here's a phrase which I found kind of motivating.

"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take" - Wayne Gretzky. I dunno if it's famous in your home countries, but I'm from the UK, most people don't even know who he is!

That's what I think. I apply my own ideas to my language usage. And it produces interesting results. I would much rather bumble along speaking a bit strangely and be understood than say nothing and look like a goose. I also suffer from anxiety and the like, but never when it comes to speaking. Why should I? That I can speak Japanese at all is some kind of miracle, so I forgive myself for small (and big mistakes). So when I speak, I speak fast and about all sorts of topics, and then out of nowhere I make a stupid mistake. The amount of people who care: 0.

I "teach" English here in Japan, and I encourage my students to make mistakes and learn from them as opposed to trying to produce perfect grammar, and saying nothing if they're unable to do that. Good speakers are good communicators, not those with perfect grammar.

[/2centsrant]

thegeelonghellswan Member

Registered: 2008-05-15 Posts: 74

I think you should get a handle on your anxiety and then your japanese will probably sort itself out.

Bear in mind any medication you take generally will target symptoms not the problem.

Why not spend sometime exploring yourself and improving yourself. People who have extreme anxiety, bad social skills etc can improve these things. In fact, I am sure if you wanted to you could become more social and charming that most people.

You could get to the point where you don't give a shit about what people think of you if you stuff up Japanese because it just cannot affect who you are. Ultimately, who gives a damn if a stranger laughs at you speaking the language.

Practical things to do -

Join a toastmasters club

Say hello to a stranger (and nothing else)

Get a girlfriend

Speak to people on skype. Seems weird since you are in the country, but if you can't talk to people face to face, might be worth a shot.

Have conversations with yourself <- in a private spot.

Volunteer for an orphanage or something and play, talk with the kids. They don't give a damn if you speak bad, and will probably really appreciate having an adult there that cares enough to hang with them.

My unconventional 2 cents.

robinowen Member

From: Kanagawa Registered: 2008-09-13 Posts: 29

go to an izakaya, get drunk and talk to the old guys

you could use skype, but going to an izakaya would be better.

Javizy Member

From: England Registered: 2007-02-16 Posts: 770

Spend some of your time at home on Skype. Face-to-face conversations are good, but far from necessary at this point, especially if you have confidence issues. Look through a site like the Mixxer and try to find somebody interesting. It can still be a bit nerve-racking having the first conversation with a new person, but after that you'll be fine. Doing some basic introductions through IM will make things even easier.

I can completely relate to what you say about making basic errors when speaking. For example, I sometimes add だ where it shouldn't be added, simply because I'm so used to hearing だから, だね, etc. I don't recall doing this even once in writing, even at elementary level. However, the more I make these errors, the less I make them (if that makes sense). What's important is not to let them kill your confidence. If you can recognise that you made an error, then that's enough to help you improve.

When I first started off speaking, I was using ね in ways that annoyed even myself, and had a hard time constructing lengthy sentences. My general speaking style made me feel pretty useless and unnatural. I reckon just about any learner will have similar problems. The fact that you're still having them only means that you need more practice. Consistency is another key issue. I suck badly after a week or more with no conversation.

CharleyGarrett Member

From: Cusseta Georgia USA Registered: 2006-05-25 Posts: 303

All good advice. I just wanted to chime in and say the word "shadowing". You're listening to some native speaker speaking Japanese. You're goal is merely to repeat everything you hear them say, as closely behind them as you can, with the exact same tone, intonation, vowel sound, etc. It's hard to do, but it gets easier, and it forces you to focus on hearing, and pronunciation, and tone, which reading and reciting don't accomplish. Those are probably good too for exercising your vocal mechanisms in the context of speaking the new language, but not as good as shadowing. I've got a book and CD that's specifically for that purpose, but I think you could do it with any audio clip that you had some interest in. The thing is, you don't want to know what they're going to say before they say it. When that happens, sometimes at least, we stop listening to the real time speaker, and switch into just reciting from memory (whether it matches or not, and we're not practicing that real time brain function thing).

FWIW.

Aijin Member

From: California Registered: 2009-05-29 Posts: 648

Despite many people's beliefs on here that ability to speak and utilize the language will magically manifest itself simply from comprehension skills, my advice to you is the same as the others in this thread: go out and speak!

It might be nerve-wrecking at first, but the only way to truly be able to speak fluidly is to go out and do it! After a while you will develop your own speaking style, and you won't have to think of vocab because your brain will automatically have a collection of words associated to whatever mood, topic, and idea you're trying to express. But all the amount of reading and listening in the world won't develop those things.

Besides, you said you don't mind how painful the method is

Here's a question though: are your thoughts in Japanese? If all your internal dialogue is in Japanese, then you already know exactly how to express yourself in the language, and just have to practice getting those thoughts out with your tongue rather!

So my advice is really the same as everyone else's: get Japanese friends, talk to them, join clubs, etc. But if you're anti-social none of that will work, so before doing that maybe do some introspection and work on the anti-socialness. If you're really determined to shatter it, then I'm sure you can

If you're unable to find people to speak to though, then there's always good ole' monologues! I used to talk to myself in English all the time, just spending 30 min a day or so just voicing my thoughts aloud whilst taking a bath or other daily activities where it's not like you have anything better to do anyway. So don't feel awkward about having a monologue with yourself, it can be fun, and isn't a sign of schizophrenia worry not

Javizy Member

From: England Registered: 2007-02-16 Posts: 770

CharleyGarrett wrote:
All good advice. I just wanted to chime in and say the word "shadowing". You're listening to some native speaker speaking Japanese. You're goal is merely to repeat everything you hear them say, as closely behind them as you can, with the exact same tone, intonation, vowel sound, etc. It's hard to do, but it gets easier, and it forces you to focus on hearing, and pronunciation, and tone, which reading and reciting don't accomplish. Those are probably good too for exercising your vocal mechanisms in the context of speaking the new language, but not as good as shadowing. I've got a book and CD that's specifically for that purpose, but I think you could do it with any audio clip that you had some interest in. The thing is, you don't want to know what they're going to say before they say it. When that happens, sometimes at least, we stop listening to the real time speaker, and switch into just reciting from memory (whether it matches or not, and we're not practicing that real time brain function thing).

FWIW.

I agree with this. Even if your pronunciation is good, you might still have trouble speaking with a similar flow to native speakers. Shadowing definitely helps improve this, along with helping to train pitch and intonation (and pronunciation if needed). Another benefit is that you will remember a lot of what you've shadowed, and it becomes a lot easier to produce it in conversation.

I believe it's most effective if you shadow the same material for some amount of time (say two weeks), but even if you just repeat every few lines of something you're listening to, you'll still see some benefits. It really seems to test your listening comprehension as well. If you can't repeat something spoken at a normal speed, then why? It's probably that you didn't catch all of it, didn't understand it properly or have trouble pronouncing the sounds. I only wish I could get myself to do it more consistently...

aphasiac Member

From: 台湾 Registered: 2009-03-16 Posts: 1036

If you're shy/anxious in normal life, then that's going to be magnified when speaking a new language, because you're even less confident in what you're saying.

Basically agree with the above; deal with shyness first, get out there, talk to people, go to bars, social events, language exchanges, make friends! good luck!

mr_hans_moleman Member

From: Toronto Registered: 2007-06-24 Posts: 179

I have a simple tip, maybe you are doing it already. Do you read out loud? If you don't, then you should start right away. No matter how much you read, if you don't read out loud then it's not going to matter.

Tobberoth Member

From: Sweden Registered: 2008-08-25 Posts: 3364

Simple: Watch more without subs. You're in Japan, so watch TV, and lots of it. There are tons of sites like FNN news where you can listen to news for example, and if you zone out, all you need to do is rewatch it, which is a good thing regardless. Personally I consider my listening skill to be decently high, but I have HUGE troubles following proper news, even if I read what they will talk about before hand, so it's definitely a good source of training.

As for speaking, you have to get past your anti-social behavior and converse, a lot. What you need is parties, friends and simply situations where you have to speak Japanese for extended periods. When you're at a high level as you are, getting conversion skill up and running is a pretty fast process as long as one keeps it up for an extended period. How? I don't know man. You've been in Japan for 6 months, you should have plenty of contacts already. If not, go to international parties where people come to make friends and be sociable. Get some friends, get to know their Japanese friends. Not only will it be good for your Japanese, it will probably improve your networking as well.

chamcham Member

Registered: 2005-11-11 Posts: 1444

If you like to cook, how about taking Japanese cooking classes (料理教室)?
I'm taking a cooking class right now and it's all in Japanese.

The cooking instructor passes out printouts of all the recipes in Japanese.
So when I get home, I study all the technical cooking terms (調理用語).
And since so many of the words are used in class,
I pick up new vocabulary very easily. After a month of classes, I'm
pretty decent at reading recipes.

The best part is that after we finish making all the food, we sit down and talk
together in Japanese for 1-2 hours. It's really improved my conversation.
Not to mention that I've made lots of friends. Most are housewives, but
some are students and if you hang out with them long enough, maybe you can
meet their friends.

So far, in all of my cooking classes, I'm the only guy and the women always tease me...... :-)

And on top of that, I can finally make some good food for myself.

Last edited by chamcham (2010 March 10, 11:29 am)

ta12121 Member

From: Canada Registered: 2009-06-02 Posts: 3190

I know how you feel, sometimes you just want to be able to master the language in all fronts, especially speaking. That's the same for me. My reading+understanding skills are always going up. But my speaking if far behind. But i think if one understands enough and can think in all Japanese without switching to English then all you need is time to practice and expose yourself to more speech (in real-time). Although for me i'd love to do that but at the moment all i can do is via online.

ruiner Member

Registered: 2009-08-20 Posts: 751

Somewhat tangential, but this is the best advice I've ever heard for public-speaking anxiety--ironically yet somehow appropriately from Dexter: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmEpDw_DLag#t=6m46s

crayonmaster Member

From: USA Registered: 2009-01-19 Posts: 99 Website

ruiner wrote:
Somewhat tangential, but this is the best advice I've ever heard for public-speaking anxiety--ironically yet somehow appropriately from Dexter: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmEpDw_DLag#t=6m46s

You can learn a lot of things from serial killers. God, I love that show.

aphasiac Member

From: 台湾 Registered: 2009-03-16 Posts: 1036

Classes really are amazing - I've learnt far more in 10 hours of 書道 class (taught entirely in Japanese) than I did in 80 hours of actual Japanese language lessons. The classes help my speaking, listening and consolidate what I've learnt through self study..

Also damn you're in Japan! get a Japanese girlfriend NOW - preferably one who can't speak any English.

Last edited by aphasiac (2010 March 10, 1:31 pm)

ta12121 Member

From: Canada Registered: 2009-06-02 Posts: 3190

aphasiac wrote:
Classes really are amazing - I've learnt far more in 10 hours of 書道 class (taught entirely in Japanese) than I did in 80 hours of actual Japanese language lessons. The classes help my speaking, listening and consolidate what I've learnt through self study..

Also damn you're in Japan! get a Japanese girlfriend NOW - preferably one who can't speak any English.

Haha i agree with you on that. So true,Just today I was talking to someone i know in japan, and i say to her always talk in japanese and i'll always talk in english.Although i try to use both, it's good to get corrected and all.

But real-time conversation and putting yourself in situations that only use japanese is one of the best ways to learn. All you're doing exposing yourself in situations in real-time. This forces you to only use Japanese and listen carefully.

vix86 Member

From: Tokyo Registered: 2010-01-19 Posts: 1469

robinowen wrote:
go to an izakaya, get drunk and talk to the old guys

I didn't read all the posts, but I want to second this one. Assuming you have no reserves on drinking, many of the people I know here in Japan get a feeling that their Japanese flows better when their partially buzzed. In addition, some of the guys I know that like to hit up some of the stand up bars have some crazy stories to tell. Oh, did I mention that if you talk a lot you can sometimes end up getting free drinks? They'll just keep giving them to you, maybe to keep you there and talking haha.

danieldesu Member

From: Raleigh Registered: 2007-07-07 Posts: 247

I agree about tackling the social anxiety disorder. If nothing else (i.e. even if your Japanese doesn't improve), you will feel better about yourself and be a happier person. I can say this because I used to have social anxiety 傾向, but somehow managed to grow out of it. I'm not sure if I just matured mentally, or if it was because I was able to get past the mental hurdles that I felt burdened by. Like thegeelonghellswan, getting a girlfriend may help. I think that might have been what did it for me. If you really love someone intimately and they love you back, it is a huge confidence booster. Another thing I've done recently that has helped is p90X (Power 90 EXTREME - workout routine). Feeling good about your body helps internal confidence as well. Anyway, good luck in your endeavors.

ファブリス Administrator

From: Belgium Registered: 2006-06-14 Posts: 4021 Website

koyota wrote:
Considering possibly trying to get anti-anxiety pills as solution

Don't take anxiety pills! It's not a solution. You will become dependent on them, and I can tell you from experience that they won't help you achieve anything that you didn't achieve before. That's because all they do is "numb down" your senses, so that you support stress or anxiety more easily. It will not solve the problem at the root, only make it worse.

danieldesu wrote:
I agree about tackling the social anxiety disorder

May I mention the Vipassana course I wrote about. It's free, and you can enjoy the beautiful centre in Japan, near Kyoto. Eat healthy for 10 days too! I also used to have social anxieties to a point when it became overwhelming and was depressed for some time.

Most advice for beating anxiety or shyness is bull$$$$ because the givers generally never have experienced any substantial anxiety themselves or know what it feels like to be overwhelmed with anxiety. I've been told personally of people doing theatre to overcome their shyness, guess what? They feel ok on stage, they still feel crap in daily life. In the best case, they swap to another "persona", they play another character out of proportion. They become the "assertive" person, or the "can talk to girls" person. Whatever is the self improvement ride of the day. When you feel crap it's a wonderful opportunity to go deeper and invite more meaningful change, that will last, and drop all those gimmicks instead of putting on new ones.

You can jump the self improvement band wagon, but that will never free you. Go straight to the root of the problem.. you can learn how the mind (thoughts) and body (emotions/sensations) interact at a deeper level, that's a skill for life. Those could be the best 10 days spent in your life. It has been for many people. It will change you, and in more lasting and meaningful way than slapping an "positive" persona on top of a "negative" one. Both are distortions of reality.

When you arrive there you can chat with a lot of people before the course starts, but you can also simply talk to one person to complete your registration and take your bag to your room, and get started. At the end of 10 days, you'll feel much lighter and then a lot of things may become clearer too..

All it takes is to register here and then pay for your expenses to travel there and back.

You may meet some wonderful people there, and the instructions are given in Japanese and English, so you still get some Japanese

koyota wrote:
I'm willing to go to pretty much any lengths to get the language down.

Keep in mind this may be a cover up for something deeper. It sounds like it. Nothing wrong with a passion.. but if it becomes obsessive.. you are running away from something. Seriously, go to a Vipassana course, if only because it'll take you outside of your "box" for 10 days. When you come back, you'll have a clearer mind, and you may not need any help anymore You'll find that new ideas come, and you'll know what to do next, what's best for you.

gyuujuice Member

From: USA Registered: 2008-09-24 Posts: 828

This may sound a bit obvious but if you want to improve your speach try copying someone you know in person and try to speek like them. It has helped me a lot.
Also, I talk to myself on walks/jogs and I practice things that are hard for me to say like "笑われる". Seriously, that word is like a tongue twister.

This is a little off topic but related to social anxiety.
I have a speech disability. My father had it as well as a kid but he is an amazing speaker now. How should I practice 日本語 so I can improve both my English and my日本語?

(Some symptoms are: talking really fast, not speaking loud enough, sluring, tempo control loss and weird pronunciation (English only--I think this might of just been my Southern upbringing)

Thank ya kindly ;}

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