drivers99
Member
From: Alamogordo NM
Registered: 2009-03-31
Posts: 141
I wanted to run an idea past you guys and see what you thought. Maybe I am looking at this from the wrong direction, so if I am, feel free to tear this idea a new one.
So after completing RTK volume 1 and having done reviews for long enough, I pretty much have that "done" other than ongoing reviews. Now I'm moving onto sentences and/or vocab. I started off mining sentences; I have about 100 in Anki. Then I decided to import first the KO2001 sentences into Anki (the version that shows Nukemarine as the owner on smart.fm) in order to get the fundamental vocab. Then I realized the I should instead import the Core2000 list. Then I got impatient and wanted to just get just the vocab and not the sentences. Maybe this is where I went wrong. Anyway, I have been reviewing JUST the vocab, not the sentences in Anki, going from Kanji to the reading plus the English definition.
Here's the problem as I see it. By going from the Kanji, what I have to do is this: I look at the Kanji and see 場合 as the question. So first I think.. that's "location" plus "fit". Well now I'm stuck because I don't remember what that is. (I guess that's why a sentence would be better; it would provide context for me to remember.) But let's say I remember that it is "case" in English. Next I have to remember how to say "case" in Japanese. At this point, that means I'm attempting to produce Japanese, trying to recall how to say something in Japanese, not just recognize it. And here I often have trouble remembering it because I just don't have the experience in the language to know how to say the word. (By that I mean I fail the word multiple times, not having an easy way to remember the word going essentially from English to Japanese.)
So, my thought was that maybe I should study the vocab but I should be going from Kanji with furigana as the question and just English as the answer. That way I am just doing "input" i.e. reading Japanese, not trying to produce it. Kind of like if I was learning Spanish, all my input would be stuff that has obvious pronunciation from just the writing, you just have to get used to the vocab, not be able to produce it.
Anyone see a fault in my reasoning? What has worked for you? Right now I'm about 400 vocab into Core2000 and there are a handful of words I just keep failing until I get them right. I've heard that you shouldn't have stuff in your SRS that you haven't learned. What's a good way to learn vocab the first time and have it actually stick. RTK gives us stories to remember stuff. What about vocab?
Last edited by drivers99 (2010 March 10, 1:50 am)
vosmiura
Member
From: SF Bay Area
Registered: 2006-08-24
Posts: 1085
What worked for me is learning in sturctured kanji order, like from KO2001. If you follow that order, you get words progressively built up from kanji that you already know how to read. Its significantly easier than regular Core 2000/6000 order. The "kore: core2k+core6k complete, enhanced and sorted by kanji" should be great.
I did the sentence method for JLPT2 last year. I'd advise doing the sentences; it helps to memorize the words, and get a better understanding of what they mean and how they're used. I also used Iversen method to help learn words initially, before SRSing.
I'm currently trying Smart.FM for learning more vocab, but still early days to tell how well it will work.
Last edited by vosmiura (2010 March 10, 3:01 am)
Asriel
Member
From: 東京
Registered: 2008-02-26
Posts: 1343
Vocab is different from person to person, and everyone has their own ways of memorizing.
I suggest doing Iverson lists. Basically it's just 5-9 words that you memorize the kanji for, and write the meaning. Then later on, you look at the reading and write it in Japanese. I do Kanji -> Kana -> English -> Kanji/Kana and then its usually pretty good.
If you have 21 words to learn, break them up into three 7 word groups, and do it like this:
Kanji->kana->meaning->Kanji/Kana
Kanji->kana->meaning->Kanji/Kana
Kanji->Kana->Meaning->Kanji/Kana
Where each line is a different group of 7 words, and each color is a different step.
It looks kind of confusing, until you notice the "diagonal" pattern.
First you do Kanji1,
then you do Kanji2->Kana1,
then you do Kanji3->Kana2->Meaning1,
then you do Kana3->Meaning2->Kanji/Kana1
then you do Meaning3->Kanji/Kana2
Then you do Kanji/Kana3
I hope that was easy enough to understand...it's hard for me to explain, but really easy to do.
Of course, you can mix this up any which way you want, this is just how I learn vocab.
THEN I add it into anki, and review them as "new cards" the next day.
About keeping furigana there: I wouldn't suggest it. If I were you, I would have a vocab deck of all the vocab you're trying to learn from the sentence deck. This way, you can focus mainly on the readings on one deck (vocab) and mainly on the meanings/context in the next (sentences).
Otherwise you'll get really good at reading furigana, and won't end up able to read kanji. It's quite similar to having rikaichan all the time --> which is why my vocab is so bad.
Anyway, that's my 2 bits. Hope it helps out.
edit: @vosmiura - i don't know if you're interested, but is there any sort of tool that could help with learning with smart.fm? I've got a couple things working with their API, and right now what I'm working on is a "get example sentence" type thing for words I find from not reading hypothetical digital books.
Last edited by Asriel (2010 March 10, 3:14 am)
drivers99
Member
From: Alamogordo NM
Registered: 2009-03-31
Posts: 141
Thanks for the replies so far.
vosmiura, I should definitely look into the kore list you mentioned. I've been seeing that thread on here and it looked interesting since I was looking into Core2000 at the time. It looked like a lot of work to set up (maybe not that much though) but now I think I see the benefit may make it worth it. I'll look into setting that up today.
Asriel, I read about Iverson lists before so I follow you so far. But I am confused about the staggered part. I see the diagonal pattern but I'm confused about what you mean by "do." As in "then you do Kanji3->Kana2->Meaning1" for example. Does that mean you first try to "read" Kanji3 into kana, and then understand kana2 into English, and then finally use meaning1 to go back to the kanji/kana? That must be what that means. So you separate kana and meaning. And you also separate kana and meaning between vocab and sentence decks in Anki. So when you do vocab in Anki do you not test yourself on the meaning? For example, right now I have a vocab of 見せる and I know it's "みせる" but maybe don't remember the meaning because there are a bunch of different similar verbs that start with 見. Would you not test yourself on both the reading and meaning in the vocab deck?
wccrawford, I was thinking about that too. There are two people I follow on Twitter that LOVE that site. One used it to get really far already (stargateheaven) and one just got into it and is loving it (burritolingus - he's on this forum too). This seems like a great way to go too. My name on twitter is don_rivers by the way.
I think I may try a combination of the three ideas.
Last edited by drivers99 (2010 March 10, 9:53 am)
Asriel
Member
From: 東京
Registered: 2008-02-26
Posts: 1343
yeah it seems you have the method down. it all comes together when you see it on paper.
as for separate decks, i dont know how others do it, but vocab deck's reading:meaning importance is about 75:25 and really depends on how im feeling that day or that certain word. usually a missed meaning is just "hard" instead of failed.
sentence deck adds context to the word, and so the meaning/usage is more important, although its not unheard of to fail a sentence card because of the reading, ie having no clue.
so thats how it works for me, but just try stuff out and you'll figure out what works best for you
kainzero
Member
From: Los Angeles
Registered: 2009-08-31
Posts: 945
Furigana has its place.
I have some manga with furigana and some without, and I feel that the furigana helps me learn, but having no furigana is like the real test of whether I know it or not. I guess it's kinda like training wheels.
Right now I'm using the sentence method where I just import a whole sentence (with no furigana) into Anki and then read it, knowing both the reading and what it's saying. I usually don't care if I fail a card multiple times, it just means I'm reinforcing it. I failed 反対側 so many times but now I know it pretty well.
It's not the end-all be-all though, at times I feel like I would be better learning vocabulary word for word and having sentences just to see how it works, just like how I learned English vocabulary.
ruiner
Member
Registered: 2009-08-20
Posts: 751
@vix86 - If you're referring to the Iversen/Iverson thing, it's been discussed here a few times, just yesterday by rich_f in gyuujuice's JLPT thread I think. I don't think it's necessary, but a lot of people here seem to find it effective, somehow related to bulk vocab/microspacing. I didn't read Asriel's post (tldr) but I'm assuming that's what they're/you're referring to?
drivers99
Member
From: Alamogordo NM
Registered: 2009-03-31
Posts: 141
Well, I've gone and created a "kore" vocab/sentence deck based on the "kore" thread. I have it sorted by KO2001 order. It was a lot of work but it seems to be working correctly. http://forum.koohii.com/viewtopic.php?id=5301
I'll keep the Iversen method in mind in case I can't remember vocab more than a minute after seeing it. Maybe for troublesome vocab, like if I fail it twice in a row or something. 
I tried readthekanji and it's a little slow (lots of repetition, although that is customizable), but fun and motivating. For now I'll try the kore thing and if I get sick of it maybe I'll go back to readthekanji.
I think I've pretty much abandoned the idea of learning to input based on "furigana only" then.
Last edited by drivers99 (2010 March 10, 3:43 pm)
vosmiura
Member
From: SF Bay Area
Registered: 2006-08-24
Posts: 1085
"I personally don't think I'd ever be able to build the 1:1 connection between words if it was spaced out like that, I'd have to constantly be looking up diagonally to get the connection."
I think there are various twists on Iversen's method. I usually follow a very simple pattern. Here's how I do it.
1) Prepare 2 lists of 7 words.
2) Drill list 1 kanji -> reading + meaning until they're 'mastered' (easy to do without mistakes or stalling).
3) Do the same for list 2.
4) Drill list 1 meaning -> reading.
5) Do the same for list 2.
This is pretty quick to do (~5min for the 2 lists), and I find that it locks the words quite well, ready to move to SRSing. One of these days I want to make a web-app that automates this.
Last edited by vosmiura (2010 March 10, 7:00 pm)
