vix86
Member
From: Tokyo
Registered: 2010-01-19
Posts: 1469
So I'm curious if anyone has had these few things happen to them.
1) I'm reaching a point with my vocab learning where I'll see a Kanji word, and immediately the pronunciation jumps to my mind before even consciously trying to retrieve it. Its kind of disconcerting and worrisome to me cause I'm not sure if I should be failing my cards or not as a result. Its not really a feeling of "knowing" but more a feeling that someone just went in and stuck the thought in my head. On one hand I think of it kind of like how I read a word and know how to say it (in English my L1) without having to sound it out, but the reverse isn't necessarily true. Unfortunately on the other hand, I don't have the semantic attachment unfortunately, I can't think the word and know its meaning instantaneously. Usually I know the word but can't pin point the semantic meaning of the vocab word without thinking hard on it, which is fine with me. The problem occurs that when the pronunciation pops to my mind like that, I can't "focus" on it as easily. Usually it might go something like this with a new word I just added: 得意 "Hmmm last bit should be い hmmm somethingい。。た。。おく。。AH とくい which means....pride and a few other odd meanings." That is a normal that I just made, but sometimes another card I just made but have only review maybe 3-4 times will go something like this: 残党 "*ざんとう* "which means....its pronunciation is.....wait I just had the thought what was it........ah ざんとう which means....not a clue." And the card fails.
Actually now that I think about it, i kind of liken it to how I do listen to quick Japanese and quick reading. Understanding can only be had if I basically let my focus drift in such a way that I don't get caught up on a single word and wonder what it means. As soon as I focus I lose it. Regardless, does anyone else have this kind of situation happen to them? And when it does, do you think of it as a good thing?
1b) Sort of a flipside of this is these days sometimes when I speak Japanese the word I need to say jumps out before I even conciously realize it. Conjunctions tend to be the most common ones.
2) L1 Word loss. Over past few years I've noticed this almost accelerating. It COULD be that I'm getting old (only 23.....), but I place the blame on my JP learning more likely. Somewhere around my 2nd-3rd year in learning Japanese I noticed a slow increase in the number of times where I would just suddenly lose a word in English. For instance, I'd be in a conversation with a friend and be about to say a word and then lose it. I'd know what I'd want to say but couldn't rouse the word. In Psychology it'd be classified as a "tip of the tongue" moment. Its maddening cause more often than not its words I know for a fact that I should know and in some funny instances its words I know I've forgotten in the past and had the same kind of situation. "Apathetic"/"Apathy" tends to be a common one for me, recently "Implicit Memory" (more a concept than word) was another. Has anyone else noticed L1 word loss as their L2 or L3 languages increased? Or should I be setting up an appointment with my physician over early onset Alzheimer or something haha.
I'm curious to hear if anyone else has had other kinds of related type problems where L2+ interfered with your L1. Or just freak issues that bother you in language learning.
wccrawford
Member
From: FL US
Registered: 2008-03-28
Posts: 1551
L1 word loss is a real thing, and it eventually fixes itself again. Don't fret it.
As for the pronunciation jumping into your head, stop letting it freak you out. It's what is supposed to happen, as you already know from your L1.
As for whether to fail it when you know how to pronounce it, but not what it means, that's up to you. I personally don't fail it, but then, I've found that by studying the pronunciation and testing only for that, if I also look at the definition each time, I learn that as well and it's not a problem.
Finally... You are studying words without context. Why? It sounds like you are past being ready to study them in context. That will surely help with the meanings.
ThomasB
Member
From: Tokyo, Japan
Registered: 2010-02-27
Posts: 139
vix86 wrote:
2) L1 Word loss. Over past few years I've noticed this almost accelerating. It COULD be that I'm getting old (only 23.....), but I place the blame on my JP learning more likely. Somewhere around my 2nd-3rd year in learning Japanese I noticed a slow increase in the number of times where I would just suddenly lose a word in English. For instance, I'd be in a conversation with a friend and be about to say a word and then lose it. I'd know what I'd want to say but couldn't rouse the word. In Psychology it'd be classified as a "tip of the tongue" moment. Its maddening cause more often than not its words I know for a fact that I should know and in some funny instances its words I know I've forgotten in the past and had the same kind of situation. "Apathetic"/"Apathy" tends to be a common one for me, recently "Implicit Memory" (more a concept than word) was another. Has anyone else noticed L1 word loss as their L2 or L3 languages increased? Or should I be setting up an appointment with my physician over early onset Alzheimer or something haha..
Don't worry, it's normal :) I haven't spoken my native tongue for almost 3 years now (since I moved to the US). I only went back to my country once for vacation and had a lot of trouble communicating at first, but then got used to it again pretty quickly.
To me, more obvious than the loss of words though is the change in accent. English isn't my native language to begin with but my accent wasn't very strong. However, since I've been studying Japanese my accent in English (not to mention my native language) has been steadily getting stronger and people can immediately realize that I'm not American. It didn't use to be like that. Too bad, not that I care though, haha. I would love trading having a terrible accent in English in turn for being fluent in Japanese ;)
EDIT: Also, more noticeable to me than the loss of words is the loss of knowledge on how to use words. Whenever I write in my native language I find myself thinking "Wait, can I use this words like that? I know it works in English but I think it has a different connotation here. Even though I know the meaning." And so I end up googling examples for that word's usage in my native language.
Last edited by ThomasB (2010 March 04, 10:54 am)
ThomasB
Member
From: Tokyo, Japan
Registered: 2010-02-27
Posts: 139
Grinkers wrote:
How long did it take for you to start losing your native language (I'm assuming it's English here)?
It really depends on how much English you are still using. Obviously, you're writing here in English. Are you working for an international company where you speak English? Do you talk to friends in English or Japanese?
I think I started loosing my native language after a couple of month of being in the US, but I didn't, and still don't, do anything in my native language. No writing (except for emails maybe once a month), no speaking, no reading, etc. I also need to look up a lot of words from English -> Native language. Not because I don't know the English word, but simply because I can't find the words in my native language that corresponds to it.
Last edited by ThomasB (2010 March 04, 10:54 am)
vix86
Member
From: Tokyo
Registered: 2010-01-19
Posts: 1469
Well its good/interesting to see that L1 atrophy happens to everyone, but it sounds more like it should happen when you are fully immersed, as it did to many of you. When it first started with me I was still in the states. Weird.
wccrawford wrote:
Finally... You are studying words without context. Why? It sounds like you are past being ready to study them in context. That will surely help with the meanings.
My vocab deck (main deck) is set up so that I have the context sentence till I need to check it (hold "Shift") or till I flip the card and it appears. So I still keep context, but I try to learn words by themselves as I feel knowing a word in isolation is more important than picking it out its meaning in context. When using a sentences, I have a tendency to learn by spotting the sentence than by spotting the word, which isn't conducive IMO.
vix86
Member
From: Tokyo
Registered: 2010-01-19
Posts: 1469
ruiner wrote:
First-language attrition: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 … 094015.htm (Thora spotted this via another link I'd posted - http://forum.koohii.com/viewtopic.php?pid=91526).
...
Thanks for the useful links, I particularly found the MacWhinney paper an interesting read if for nothing else than a review of concepts in the field of L1/2A. It was also kind of interesting seeing some of the same stuff I had issue with mentioned in there, such as transfer errors in Lexical learning. The error where a words meaning don't map well due to a lack of matching in one direction or another. (ex: "I know" -> 分かる・知る). The resonance idea is also interesting cause its something I've done a lot and not necessarily payed much attention to (Walking along the street, thinking the Japanese word for stuff I see, without noticing it too much). Of course resonance isn't anything new really, neuroimaging has shown for some years that in Bilinguals, areas in the semantic region co-activate with both languages when they experience a word (ie: "Cat" activates both the semantic representation in the English networks and Japanese networks of the brain). Should probably hold true in polyglots as well.
--
As far as the Wiki article goes. I'd suspect it's been known for much longer than 2007. I found it odd that most of the references weren't that old and took a look at the article's history and noted that msschmid had contributed a lot tot he article. Incidentally a lot of her articles are references in the wiki piece, and I suspect much of what is not Schmid, is referenced in Schmid's articles. At least she seems well versed in the field, according to her CV.
Thanks
ruiner
Member
Registered: 2009-08-20
Posts: 751
Yes it's fascinating stuff. I should mention again that both articles/authors point out that the concepts aren't new and explain how/why they have been applied/are being applied in the relevant, newer models.
Last edited by ruiner (2010 March 05, 2:52 am)
vix86 wrote:
I suppose it probably depends on what you mean by "a lot more words." I find in general that Japanese tends to use less to express more, something that's quite Japanese (culturally). It defiantely requires a complete change in one's way of thought and how you build sentences.
What I meant was – in my mother tongue you could use the verb form 'gulyal' for example and it would already imply that this action (having a walk) happened somewhere in the past, that it was a continuous process rather than accomplished mission, that it was performed by someone of a male gender and he did it alone. You just can't say 'walked' in English with the same effect. There are certain words that are necessary to use and you have to use them in some exact order too. Russian allows much more freedom when it comes to this. But being exposed to a lot of English-speaking media & text information on daily basis, I spend quite a lot of time writing or just thinking in English. And this seems to affect the way I use my mother tongue. For example I start using personal pronouns where they can be avoided or try to use some English-like word order while it doesn't really matter or even when a different one would sound slightly more natural.
So while Evil_Dragon mentions being exposed to Japanese causing him to leave things out of his language, English makes me add things to mine. Hopefully Japanese will help me to balance things out a bit or will at least make my confusion a bit more diverse and entertaining -) Actually even reading English translations of Japanese text make me speak somewhat funny for a while. Guess I'm just bit too sensitive when it comes to such things. I get easily infected with someone's accent as well.
Last edited by iAurora (2010 March 06, 3:35 am)
