IceCream wrote:

＊　3. 範囲・範囲の終わり
What makes something a range or scope? What's the difference between the meanings of the で and に sentences here? The definition says that one is a range / range end, and one is a point, but i don't really get it, i think. How do you decide if something is a range to begin with?!
で：　③範囲・範囲の終わり                    *   ３時間でできる　　  ３時で締め切る
に：　⑥時点　時間の一点（長くても）          *   ２時に会う　　　　　　縄文時代に発達した

OK, so ３時間 is pretty clearly a range of time, right? Similarly ２時 is a point in time. So the first example in each case is a nice clear-cut one. The second example in each case is showing examples that come closer to the boundary: in ３時で締め切る the で indicates that you have up to 3 o'clock to meet the deadline : another range. And the に発達した is treating the Joumon period as a (rather long) point in time. (kind of feels like maybe the difference between "in the J. period" and "by the Joumon period".)

The Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar points out that sometimes there is a choice between で and に, eg

DBJG wrote:

春学期は五月十日(で|に)終わる。
Where de is used, the nuance is that the spring term lasts up to May 10. When ni is used, however, the sentence merely indicates the time when the spring term ends.

(Incidentally, the DBJG analysis puts the で of ３時間でできる in the 道具・手段 category, leaving only sentences like３時で締め切る in their range-of-time class.)
ETA: that is, the DBJG basically says that this kind of で is defining a range of time by saying "up to this finishing time", whereas に is just saying "at this time". Dunno if you find that a helpful way to think about it.

Last edited by pm215 (2010 March 01, 3:14 pm)

IceCream wrote:

it's interesting that it's "by the end".

...where'd that come from? I don't think I meant to imply it :-)

IceCream wrote:

oh, it was this bit... plus the 範囲の終わり from Niwasaburou. i thought it meant that it was a finishing time if anything

Ah. I did mean 'always by a finishing time', but when the finishing time is vague that doesn't mean 'up to the latest possible point you could still call the finishing time', it just means you're being vague ;-). That's true of the English "by the Victorian age": that is talking about a range of time ending at the rather fuzzily defined point of the Victorian age.

NB: we are here moving into the region where I may be applying my English-language preconceptions to things. So for instance in 私のパスポートは六月できれる I am assuming that the speaker is being about as precise as the English "my passport expires in June" and is not implicitly saying either "beginning of June" or "end of June". But I might be wrong.

Even something as simple as 書いてください can be analyzed like this; if you think of 書いて as the finished action of writing, and ください as "give to me", it's easy to see why the resulting meaning is "(please) write this for me".  書いておく is the finished act of writing + おく ("put" or "place"), so it's "write and put aside for future use".  読んでいます is the finished act of reading + existence ("I have read"), or the started act of reading + existence ("I am reading").  etc.

As for に:
＊　に　　⑦原因　　生理的・心理的な原因が多い
　  　　　　物音に驚く　　　酒に酔う　　　雨に濡れる

If I understand your question, you're asking why it's 酒に酔う but ペンで書く, or 雨に濡れる but 車で行く.  I think the difference is that the で is used with "operational" verbs (ones that the subject has control over) whereas the に is used with "affective" verbs (ones that the subject does not have control over).  But I could be wrong about this.

Last edited by yudantaiteki (2010 March 01, 5:33 pm)

What grammar guide is that?

yukamina wrote:

What grammar guide is that?

If you're asking me, it's the Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar by Seiichi Makino and Michio Tsutsui. It's really a reference book rather than a textbook, although several people here have mentioned that they've read through it at an early stage of their study.

Ice Cream, thanks for posting that.