Grammar past JLPT1?

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Reply #1 - 2010 February 07, 5:36 pm
raseru Member
From: california Registered: 2007-05-23 Posts: 159

I'm encountering grammar outside of JLPT1 and I find it rather hard to find explanations for them. Especially since a lot of them have other low level forms similar, so every time I ask, I get some guy teaching me the basic stuff like のだ rather than the other one.

some examples are

のだ/んだ
eg 俺は行くぞ。行くと言ったら行くんだ。 （決意）
立て、立て！立つんだ、ジョー！ （命令）
can be a your own strong decision or an order http://www.lang.nagoya-u.ac.jp/nichigen … 4/4-14.pdf

だろうが
eg 男だろうが！
知るかと言ったんだろうが
rhetorical question or just trying to make your statement stronger I believe.

たる archaic
eg 起て飢えたる者よ
ている I think

verb w/  し archaic
eg 過去にとらわれし者よ！
I see this し all the time but still haven't completely understood what form it takes in normal Japanese, but I'm assuming it's verb た form
A Japanese person told me this, but unfortunately his message is a little confusing
"け which means past changed し.
Its feature the し exists before noun.
But it is old word.Its very difficult and everyday conversation dont use it. "

Is there anywhere online where I can learn this grammar that goes beyond JLPT1? Schools don't teach it so it's kind of hard to learn. I usually have to encounter it tons of times before I naturally get it

Last edited by raseru (2010 February 07, 6:27 pm)

Reply #2 - 2010 February 07, 5:58 pm
Javizy Member
From: England Registered: 2007-02-16 Posts: 770

I was thinking a thread like this would be a good idea, although I still have about half of Level 1 to do.

One I've encountered is っぷり, which seems to be a casual form of マス形＋方. 走りっぷり - way of running. Like you though, I'm not sure where to find reliable explanations.

I see those annoying archaic forms all the time in the stupid goo example sentences. It'd be nice to know them just for that reason, I guess.

Reply #3 - 2010 February 07, 6:03 pm
raseru Member
From: california Registered: 2007-05-23 Posts: 159

Yeah, I've seen that form a ton

My guess is the っ is just for colloquial speech and when typing, you cut it off to get this
戦いぶり

edit:mine isn't マス形 but it's the same meaning

Last edited by raseru (2010 February 07, 6:43 pm)

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Reply #4 - 2010 February 07, 6:14 pm
pm215 Member
From: UK Registered: 2008-01-26 Posts: 1354

Javizy wrote:

One I've encountered is っぷり, which seems to be a casual form of マス形＋方. 走りっぷり - way of running.

This one's in 日本語文型辞典 under ぶり; (the (4) referred to is the example 「彼は飲みっぷりがいいね。」)

動作を表す名詞や動詞の連用形に付いて、その様子やありさまを表す。「食べる、飲む」は、「食べっぷり、飲みっぷり」になる。(4)は、「見ていて気持ちがいいほど豪快に飲む」という意味。

(see also sense (1) in ぶり in Daijirin.)

Last edited by pm215 (2010 February 07, 6:20 pm)

Reply #5 - 2010 February 07, 6:22 pm
raseru Member
From: california Registered: 2007-05-23 Posts: 159

Checked my kenkyusha dictionary for example sentences to be sure
男[女]ぶりがよい
知ったかぶりで
仕事ぶり
話しぶり
so the form isn't too limited

Reply #6 - 2010 February 07, 6:39 pm
pm215 Member
From: UK Registered: 2008-01-26 Posts: 1354

raseru wrote:

寝るふり

I'd picked up the impression that [dictionary or past form] + ふり was generally 'pretending to X', 'as if X', eg たぬきはショックを受けた時に寝るふりをするそうです .

Reply #7 - 2010 February 07, 6:43 pm
raseru Member
From: california Registered: 2007-05-23 Posts: 159

Oops, you're right, screwed up on that one, I'll edit it out
cause it's all similar and same kanji and all I for some reason just lumped it together

Last edited by raseru (2010 February 07, 6:44 pm)

Reply #8 - 2010 February 07, 9:12 pm
yudantaiteki Member
Registered: 2009-10-03 Posts: 3619

たる archaic
eg 起て飢えたる者よ
ている I think

Yes, it's ている.

verb w/  し archaic
eg 過去にとらわれし者よ！
I see this し all the time but still haven't completely understood what form it takes in normal Japanese, but I'm assuming it's verb た form

Yeah.  What the Japanese person may have been getting at is that in classical Japanese, it's a conjugated form of き that occurs before nouns.  But unless you're reading classical texts, you don't need to know anything more specific than "past tense".

Last edited by yudantaiteki (2010 February 07, 9:12 pm)

Reply #9 - 2010 February 07, 9:20 pm
raseru Member
From: california Registered: 2007-05-23 Posts: 159

Speaking of that き, I've seen that a lot too. So it is also the paste tense form (for nouns)? good to know

I don't really mind if I just know it means "past tense" but if there was some site or something that could point these things out, it'd make life easier, lol

It's surprising how often I come across archaic speech without trying to. FF13/FF:dissidia/Berserk/etc

Last edited by raseru (2010 February 07, 9:24 pm)

Reply #10 - 2010 February 07, 10:06 pm
kazelee Rater Mode
From: ohlrite Registered: 2008-06-18 Posts: 2132 Website

@raseru

Makes sense to find in an RPG. I've seen it in Zelda as well.

Reply #11 - 2010 February 07, 10:21 pm
howtwosavealif3 Member
From: USA Registered: 2008-02-09 Posts: 889 Website

hmm..the title of the thread is strange... cause i know all the stuff you guys mentioned from following AJATT (since... they are common) instead of studying for the JLPT. and from the looks of some pratice JLPT test questions that were online... i haven't heard of a bunch of grammar stuff that is on JLPT 1 (stuff i never heard of)

Reply #12 - 2010 February 07, 10:25 pm
yudantaiteki Member
Registered: 2009-10-03 Posts: 3619

raseru wrote:

Speaking of that き, I've seen that a lot too. So it is also the paste tense form (for nouns)? good to know

I doubt you have; what you're probably thinking of is the archaic adjective ender as in 新しき技; this isn't past tense but just an archaic variation of 新しい技.

Reply #13 - 2010 February 07, 11:05 pm
raseru Member
From: california Registered: 2007-05-23 Posts: 159

howtwosavealif3 wrote:

hmm..the title of the thread is strange... cause i know all the stuff you guys mentioned from following AJATT (since... they are common) instead of studying for the JLPT. and from the looks of some pratice JLPT test questions that were online... i haven't heard of a bunch of grammar stuff that is on JLPT 1 (stuff i never heard of)

Yeah, some of the stuff outside of JLPT1 is very very common. stuff like the 命令 のだ is something you hear like 1-3x per show if you watch anime or something. I just want to see more grammar points that aren't pointed out in books

yudantaiteki wrote:

raseru wrote:

Speaking of that き, I've seen that a lot too. So it is also the paste tense form (for nouns)? good to know

I doubt you have; what you're probably thinking of is the archaic adjective ender as in 新しき技; this isn't past tense but just an archaic variation of 新しい技.

Yeah, I was talking about stuff like 新しき技
You sure know your grammar. Where'd you  study stuff like this?

Reply #14 - 2010 February 07, 11:28 pm
yudantaiteki Member
Registered: 2009-10-03 Posts: 3619

Well, I'm working on a PhD in classical Japanese literature so I have a pretty extensive classical Japanese background.  But other than that, most of my grammatical knowledge comes from the textbook Japanese: The Spoken Language and from various linguistic classes I've taken.

(The 命令 のだ is a lot like English "You *will* follow my orders!"  It's using a statement of "this is how things are" to essentially mean an order that you must follow.)

Last edited by yudantaiteki (2010 February 07, 11:28 pm)

Reply #15 - 2010 February 07, 11:43 pm
raseru Member
From: california Registered: 2007-05-23 Posts: 159

Ah, I see, cool.
Do you plan to be a teacher?

Did some searching, found this page
http://contest.thinkquest.jp/tqj2001/40555/gakutop.htm
pretty neat, it goes over a lot of the stuff. I didn't even notice 無くば was archaic, I just thought the author wrote it funny.

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