Yeah even Heisig says you should go from meaning to kanji.
No one at this site would ever dare break one of the commandents
of Lord Heisig...... :-p

So you'll just have to tough it out...... :-)

Point is that you don't particularly want to precisely find exact keyword by kanji. Need to make perfect keyword-to-kanji correspondence arises from need to learn kanji writing in setting of a review system. For kanji you want to know the meaning, not keyword. General meaning is remembered even if you are not sure which of many near-synonyms this particular kanji stands for. But actual meaning is in compounds, so this imprecision is less than distance to what you actually need and can be freely disregarded.

I changed my habits recently and have started to write down failed kanji as I'm re-learning them. I forgot that I had one of those notebooks columns and grids for practicing kanji writing(I guess I now have a use for them. Almost threw them away a while ago :-). I'm already finding that it's helping me much more than just reviewing and writing the kanji in my head.

Last edited by chamcham (2007 April 29, 10:13 am)

Thanks for sharing that script with me.  I'm not sure if I know how to use it, though.  I've installed it, but when I go to the review section here now, the flashcard page loads, and then an alert pops up that says "face down", the only option is to click "OK".  So then the flashcards work like they normally do, keyword to kanji.  I'm not sure if you know what is happening here, and I don't expect you to take any time to see what is happening since I really don't mine simply using the flashcards the way they're meant to be used.  I just wanted to let you know that I tried your script and I appreciate it.

That's fine, don't worry about it.  Thanks for posting it, anyway.  Maybe I'll try it with a different version of Firefox.

Wow, it works, thanks a lot!  I had no idea this Greasemonkey thing even existed.  It's pretty awesome.  Does it take you guys long to write those scripts?

The most convenient way to do kanji to keyword is probably what jjazz is doing, by creating a second account solely for that purpose, as it otherwise gets in the way of the review schedule. I've now updated the Kanji.Koohii: Kanji to keyword script to allow for this scenario without needing to switch computers.

This version will add a kanji-to-keyword checkbox to your profile page to specify in which direction you want to review (checked by default), and is just as effective as enabling/disabling the script in the Tools panel (a small performance loss notwithstanding). But on top of that, as the Greasemonkey settings are always linked to your user name, clicking the box will only affect the account where you're logged under. Uncheck it for your main account and leave it checked for your new account and you're set to go.

Last edited by woelpad (2007 May 31, 4:57 am)

I just started using this script. It's awesome, thanks!

woelpad wrote:

Tipped off by mspertus, I changed the flip card button to display
http://kanji.koohii.com/_misc/scripts/show_keyword.gif
instead of
http://kanji.koohii.com/img/review/btn_flip.gif
Pictures courtesy of Fabrice. Script here.

Now it's even more awesome. Thanks!

Contrary to what Heisig says, kanji to keyword recognition doesn't take care of itself on the basis of doing RtK1 alone. However maybe he meant implicitly that it does take care of itself as you actually practice those characters.

I'm still dubious to a real necessity for a kanji to keyword review. I understand where the need comes from, but why not remind yourself of those keywords as your are learning actual words, and at the same time, "finetune" your understanding of the keyword from the actual words.

Trinity helps you for that in two ways.

- When you review vocab you can simply hover on every kanji in the prompt and the keyword will appear.

- If you keep forgetting it, click that kanji to get to the "Kanji Study" page. There you can add words or simply lookup other words with the kanji and available readings. You can get a good feeling for the function of the character in this way. Add one or two other words using the same character, or maybe add one that exemplifies best the particular keyword that Heisig chose.

Thora wrote:

Another thought on weaning off English keywords: Trinity seems like a fantastic post RTK1 tool in many ways. But I've wondered if, after a certain point, the readily available english keywords might prolong some users' dependence on them?

Good point. I'm trying to make the RtK keywords really secondary. For example when you review vocab you can see the keywords but only on hover. Other than on the vocab flashcards, they appear only on the Kanji Study page I think.

RtK keywords could still be useful for non-RtK learners but all of Trinity is meant for RtK and non-RtK users alike.

Even now, a complete beginner can put in vocablists for the days of the week, numbers, counters and such, review the vocab, review their kanji (quickie I added yesterday), and even review their lessons (vocablist review added today ).

PS: My Trinity link? I wanted to link to the first post where there is a link to the register page.

Nukemarine English keywords are very helpful for learning new compounds and generally post RtK1, no questions about that. The "weaning off" could take a long while until visual memory takes over. However I think Thora was referring to reviewing with Japanese keywords. I will add Japanese keyword review, but for Trinity the "weaning off" I had in mind is simply putting emphasis on the written japanese words.

Nukemarine wrote:

Now, if you are at a level where you get instant recall of concept (keyword) when seeing a kanji, you are that much better at reading.

I'd love to get to that level with all the kanji I've learned. So far only happens with the ones I see often. I agree and you say concept, and then keyword. So while i see some value in a specific kanji > keyword review, I feel it may be more productive to start reviewing compounds directly, and review the meanings at the same time.

The reason for that is that there is no end to reviews. Let's assume there was in fact a "holy grail" of SRS algorithm that makes sure you NEVER forget anything. But then the existential question is... why do you review over and over and over in the first place?

Hopefully it's with the intent to put it into practice, learning the written and spoken Japanese. Because there is so much review already, and that ultimately you will always end up forgetting something you review but don't use (unless you want to review 24h/24), I believe that post RtK1 it's time to to focus on recognizing the concept/keyword for the material you actually use.

To go back to my quote of what you said, I think you will in fact get to there faster by reviewing the meanings (and practice recalling the keywords), by way of learning vocab that uses those characters. You can make sure you don't review over and over keyword which you didn't understand in the way Heisig meant... and words will help you remember the meanings, and keywords.

I should have made that clearer in the beginning. The Kanji to Keyword would work great early in your studies when you're doing at the same time as Keyword to Kanji. Hopefully we all agree that doing ONLY Kanji to Keyword is bad (very, very bad).

Fabrice, yes, I think that concept trumps the keyword in later studies. With Kanji to Keyword, I'll mark mine as correct so long as I got the concept (hell, even if I got the Japanese pronunciation) cause it's not about having a readily available thesaurus in your head. However, I notice a problem in my walking about Yokosuka with not recognizing a Kanji (even the concept) even though the keyword brings the kanji right to light. I think that a Kanji to keyword option can alleviate that problem.

Perhaps, seeing that concept is more important that keyword when doing Kanji recognition, maybe add a generally accepted explanation of the kanji (and the keyword naturally) in the answer portion. Let the learner decide if he got it right. Not sure if this would cause more harm than good. We've all experienced a synonym issue with keywords, this could exacerbate the problem.

And yes, once I get into doing either 2001.Odessey sentences or Kanji in Context, the Kanji to Keyword should be all but irrelevant. However, that's putting recognition proficiency 6 to 12 months down the road after Heisig instead of during Heisig.