Could someone explain 連体形 (adjectives)?

Index » The Japanese language

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Reply #1 - 2009 December 30, 5:44 am
Tobberoth Member
From: Sweden Registered: 2008-08-25 Posts: 3364

I ran into this grammatical term and it's sort of unclear to me what it actually means. (I'm reading about it on Japanese wikipedia). So basically, it's said to extend an uninflected word. That really doesn't tell me much, especially since it doesn't even seem to be true. Sure, it seems to be true for verbs, but the 連体形 of i-adjectives takes the き instead of い so it's obviously inflected. And does anyone else agree that this is a form you almost NEVER see? At first it blew my mind, then I remembered the ONE situation where I can remember seeing it: The game 素晴らしき世界.

So what I basically want to know, in a nutshell, is:
What's the difference between 素晴らしき世界 and 素晴らしい世界?

Last edited by Tobberoth (2009 December 30, 5:44 am)

Reply #2 - 2009 December 30, 6:30 am
Codexus Member
From: Switzerland Registered: 2007-11-27 Posts: 721

From what I'm googling it seems that the しき form is classical Japanese and not modern usage so I wouldn't worry too much about it.

As I understand it, 連体形 (attributive form) describes cases when you have an inflected verb/adjective that modifies the noun that follows. So in modern Japanese that would just be dictionary form and い form of the adjective.

Apparently, the inflection in しき of adjectives is called シク活用 and some adjectives are ク活用 and conjugated differently.

From http://detail.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/qa … 1313140223

②形容詞
　●ク活用…終止形は「～し」、連体形は「～き」と「～かる」
　例　高し・高き（高かる）
　●シク活用…終止形は「～し」、連体形は「～しき」と「～しかる」
　例　美し・美しき（美しかる）

Well, I'm just glad that modern Japanese grammar is so much simpler big_smile

Reply #3 - 2009 December 30, 6:46 am
JimmySeal Member
From: Kyoto Registered: 2006-03-28 Posts: 2279

In modern Japanese, the 連体形 of verbs and -i adjectives is identical to the dictionary form (終止形).  In classical Japanese they were different.  Sometimes people use the classical 連体形 to give their language a classical feel, but you'd have to ask a native to find out exactly how the classical 連体形 makes them feel.

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Reply #4 - 2009 December 30, 6:53 am
Evil_Dragon Member
From: Germany Registered: 2008-08-21 Posts: 683

Tobberoth wrote:

And does anyone else agree that this is a form you almost NEVER see?

Actually you can hear it quite often when something is supposed to sound "old-fashioned"
If I remember correctly I even heard it in 300. Among other expressions that sound soooo 1850. wink

Reply #5 - 2009 December 30, 6:59 am
Tobberoth Member
From: Sweden Registered: 2008-08-25 Posts: 3364

JimmySeal wrote:

In modern Japanese, the 連体形 of verbs and -i adjectives is identical to the dictionary form (終止形).  In classical Japanese they were different.  Sometimes people use the classical 連体形 to give their language a classical feel, but you'd have to ask a native to find out exactly how the classical 連体形 makes them feel.

Are you sure about that? Here's the direct quote from jp wiki:
"また形容詞は「き」の形をとり、形容動詞は「なる・たる」の形を取る。"

Nowhere is it mentioned that it's historical... of course, it could be that the actual 連体形 for adjectives is what is historical and that dictionary form is simply used instead, I haven't read the whole article so it could be mentioned later.

And this also makes me wonder about the na-adjective form, since it's said that なる is used instead of な, which would give the difference:
元気な人
元気なる人

Or would this also be considered historical?

Last edited by Tobberoth (2009 December 30, 7:01 am)

Reply #6 - 2009 December 30, 7:03 am
Evil_Dragon Member
From: Germany Registered: 2008-08-21 Posts: 683

Tobberoth wrote:

Nowhere is it mentioned that it's historical... of course, it could be that the actual 連体形 for adjectives is what is historical and that dictionary form is simply used instead, I haven't read the whole article so it could be mentioned later.

Well, the form is declared as 文語, which can mean either classical Japanese or written language (which is the same as the spoken language used to be in... I don't know, Heian Japan?). At least most people won't talk like that anymore. Or write, for that matter.

Reply #7 - 2009 December 30, 7:05 am
Javizy Member
From: England Registered: 2007-02-16 Posts: 770

I've seen ～らしきもの pop up a few times in "normal" contexts. I didn't know what らしき was at the time though, and assumed it was a set phrase or something. Maybe there are still some idiomatic usages that don't sound old-fashioned?

Reply #8 - 2009 December 30, 7:06 am
Tobberoth Member
From: Sweden Registered: 2008-08-25 Posts: 3364

Yeah sorry, I read on in the article and it's later mentioned that both き and なる aren't used in spoken Japanese anymore (and the literary style of modern spoken language).

I guess I should have fought my way through the whole thing before getting confused big_smile

Reply #9 - 2009 December 30, 7:17 am
JimmySeal Member
From: Kyoto Registered: 2006-03-28 Posts: 2279

Tobberoth wrote:

Are you sure about that? Here's the direct quote from jp wiki:

The Wikipedia article explicitly points it out right here:

また現代口語においては一段活用にウ段音は失われてエ段音またはイ段音となり、形容詞は「い」、形容動詞は「な」を取っている。なお動詞・形容詞の終止形は連体形に統合されたのであるが、形容動詞だけは終止形と異なる語形となっている。

And this also makes me wonder about the na-adjective form, since it's said that なる is used instead of な, which would give the difference:
元気な人
元気なる人

Or would this also be considered historical?

<word>+な would be the modern 連体形 of -na adjectives.  <word>+なる is the classical form.

Last edited by JimmySeal (2009 December 30, 7:20 am)

Reply #10 - 2009 December 30, 7:37 am
yudantaiteki Member
Registered: 2009-10-03 Posts: 3619

Just to round the discussion off, another use of the 連体形 in classical is that it can stand by itself as a noun, i.e. すばらしき could be the equivalent of すばらしいもの (or ひと or whatever).  This pops up every so often in modern Japanese when they're trying to purposely use archaic forms.

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