I'm a bit drunk, so forgive me if my English grammar is poor and explanations are confusing in this post.
Before going to more complicated points, lets' fix this minor problem first: 見せられる in 私のかいた絵なんか、あなたに見せられたものではありません。isn't passive. Actually you can replace 見せられた with 見せれた if you don't mind this alternative version of potential. So it's potential. You can understand this as a fixed phrase too; Xできたようなものではない means "There is no way I could possibly X," etc. Replace Xできた with another potential verb like 見せられた, and you get the example sentence.
If you didn't know, the conjugations of a certain kind of verb is now evolving in Japan, and for some native speakers, the potential form of so-called 一段動詞 takes a different form from the passive form. There are a lot of discussion about this, and of course it's curmudgeons' pet peeve. If this shit catches on, the Japanese grammar becomes more regular and less ambiguous in that you can easily tell if it's passive or potential because their forms are different in the newer grammar. Well, calling it "newer grammar" is kind of wrong because this conjugation pattern has a longer history than the current "proper" grammar; many regional dialects have long been using this conjugation pattern. Famous novelists in the past also used it. So there are many advocates, but it'd be considered wrong in JLPT and other standardized tests, I think.
So your grasp of 自発 is pretty good meaning-wise.
IceCream wrote:
So, its for stuff that is transitive, but does it by itself anyway... like emotions and natural phenomenon, and also where the potential seems to run into the passive...
so, it does mean something that is sort of intransitive?
This pretty much sums it up the sense of 自発, though I kind of doubt a person who doesn't grasp it and only read this quote would understand what you're saying here... But yeah, the meaning is pretty much the kernel of the whole れる/られる thing.
Since you get the meaning, I think all you have to do is distinguish 自発 from direct passive using non-animated patients, i.e., the irregular ones. These two kinds of れる/られるs are confusingly similar.
Here's another example I though you might have thought as passive:
彼の行動が不思議に思われます。
This can be passive in some context, but usually it isn't passive when the agent thing is 私 and a bit redundant version of the non-passive sentence is
私には彼の行動が不思議に思われます。
Of course, the meaning of the sentence is basically that the speaker thinks a guy behaves strangely, so I'm guessing you'd have thought something like
hypothetical IceCream wrote:
"Hm. 彼の行動 should be the one that gets the 思われる action. It's clearly marked by が. And 私 is the one who does the action because it's 'I think...,' It doesn't make sense if "strange' did the 'think.' Yeah, it's like 私 thinks of 彼の行動. So the passive table thing should look like:
Agent: 私 (marked by には or に + は?? i dunno.)
Patient: 彼の行動 (marked by が)
Passive verb: 思われる (But is this direct? Or indirect? Oh, wait. 行動 isn't animated. So it's direct.)
k. But what's 不思議に doing here? It is... the "destination" thing? It would be if it follows the theory of "simple passive." But it isn't a place... Well, maybe "destination" was a misnomer. Wait. It was "I think of his behavior + 不思議に." Hmm. So, "What do I think of his behavior?" "It's strange." Of course! Ah, 不思議だ becomes 不思議に when it's attached to a verb! I think I heard this somewhere before!"
If you'd have thought like this, just swap "passive" with "自発." You already know what 自発 sounds like, so I think you can get the meaning of the nuance of this sentence pretty easily.
Now let's get back to the previous 自発 example:
子供の頃の情景が思いだされる。
The meaning of this sentence is "memories of the simple days come to the speaker's mind" or more literally, the speaker remembers the days when he was a little kid. You can put an adverb like "clearly = 克明に" so the sentence becomes:
子供の頃の情景が克明に思いだされる。
The agent is 私, which is hidden from the sentence. Actually 自発 usually omits the agent thing. If you want to add the agent, you use には to mark it (Do you remember the last example had 私には?). The verb is of course 思い出される, which is the れる form of 思い出す. The agent remembers 子供の頃の情景 = scene in his memory from the past, so this is the patient thing. You already know this isn't passive. It's 自発. I chose "come to his mind" because of its potential+passive+byitself sense.
I think you can now understand the example you guys used in the grammar battle:
原爆が長崎に落とされた。
As pm215 says, strictly speaking this isn't 自発, though its definition is different from linguist to linguist. But you can get its meaning and nuance pretty much the same way. Actually you already did it:
IceCream wrote:
then... do they use the statement 原爆が長崎に落とされた to make it sound like it was some kind of spontaneous event? And make it sound less against america, because if the passive was used, then Nagasaki got done to? (but it did!?!!)
so, it makes a verb that its usually felt that someone has control over into something that they don't have control over?
This is close to the nuance of the sentence. Technically the sentence is a direct passive using non-animated patient = 原爆. It's classified as passive because of grammatical structure and stuff, but the meaning and nuance basically comes from 自発 (Well, every られる comes from this, but it's closer, I think.). So it's 自発 plus a tint of passive color. Non-animated passive has a formal/academic sense, but it has no emotional relation that traditional animated passive has. So add the formality, and you'll nail down the nuance. As long as you can get the meaning and nuance, whether it's called 自発 or non-animated direct passive doesn't matter much, I guess.
The difference appears when you disclose the "who did the action?" thing. Grammatically speaking, you usually use には to mark the agent of the action in 自発, though it's hidden in most cases. Passive has many options to mark the agent such as に, によって, の手で, and から. Niwasaburoo's 受身 section deals with usages of these markers. The simplest explanation is that によって is more formal and versatile. If you're interested, read 直接受身２：モノが in 受動態 section on his e-book.
Anyway, in 原爆が長崎に落とされた, the hidden agent is apparently 米国. And you can say 米国によって原爆が長崎に落とされた。or 米国の手で原爆が長崎に落とされた。I believe you can find an explanation for the reason you don't use から in the same 直接受身２ part. I found an example where から is better in this thread: この本は2000年に出版された can be XXXからこの本は2000年に出版された (XXX = publisher).
民間機が米国に落とされた is different. As niwasaburoo says, you can't say (non-animated thing)が(animated thing)にpassiveされる. Generally we think a country as a sort of human. If you can replace 米国 with 米国人, the sentence is still grammatical.
We sympathize with 民間機 or people on the place, so it's animated. Or you could say that a civilian airplane should be something protected rather than shot down by the military forces, so this "should be protected" sense might also be the reason why it kind of makes us think it's animated. Anyway, it's not indirect because the civilian plane they shot down is an animated thing. So it's the usual direct with an animated patient. You can understand the meaning and nuance by the usual "got" argument.
Read example sentences of accepted non-animated passive sentences in niwasaburoo's 受身 section. They all sound like 自発 + formality. The way you put the agents is different because you attach には in a 自発 sentence, but they work pretty much the same way. As you come across more passive sentences, I'm sure your understanding will be refined and naturally start to put には to add an agent when the verb is 精神的.
I hope I made sense.
Edit: I forgot to mention that the non-animated direct passive is a lot less emotional. Well, I might have said this in another post. Either way, it makes the sentence sound like it's spontaneous or something. It's like if a politician says "A mistake was made," I kind of think "YOU made the mistake, right?" If America says 原爆が長崎に落とされた, the Japanese would retort back "YOU nuked us. Don't say as if you mean it kinda happened somehow. You did it."
Last edited by magamo (2009 December 24, 8:34 pm)
Thank you guys so much!
