まがもさま、
偉大なお知恵を伝えてくださいませんか。他のスレッドでは誰も私の拙問に答えてくれなかったのです。

もしご迷惑をお掛けしたら、ちゃんとお教えください。できるだけ早く自殺を致すふさわしい方法を決定致すからです。

どうぞよろしくお願い致します。
（物凄く下手な日本語をまがもさまにご覧になられること、より残念なことはありません。私の無能を申し訳ございません。ｍ(＿ ＿；)ｍ）

/end momentary destruction of the Japanese language. [edit: That is apparently so incomprehensible that even I can recognize it.]

「また、それが引き金になってしまったのか２年前に働いていた会社でひどい先輩（男性です）にみんなの前で恫喝された事があります。」

Why is "のか" used here? I just don't get it.

Last edited by mirina (2010 January 16, 12:31 am)

I suspect it's an AJATT trickle down effect. The AJATT blogger made a personal decision at the outset to always use kanji instead of kana regardless of common usage and always use old form kanji instead of post WW2 versions. His stated reasons for "overusing kanji" (his words) are:
   *doesn't like reading long strings of hiragana
   *fewer kanji represents a dumbing down
   *fewer kanji makes it harder to to learn Japanese (less exposure)
   *learned 4500* in 18 months and wants to use them
   *enjoyed being able to correct a Japanese person on kanji use

I would add another reason: he is a performer and self-brander who fancies the idea of the tag: "the foreigner who knows more kanji than Japanese people". It's  a distinguishing feature - a form of attention-seeking - another marketing hook.

My guess is that learners somehow adopt this mentality wholesale and overuse kanji without regard for appropriateness or stylistic effect. I don't think it's as simple as not having read enough to know what's normal because tools like Rikaichan mark words that are usually kana.

But any desire to curb a perceived kana trend wouldn't apply to using pre WW2 kanji forms where equivalent modern kani forms exist.

Also, I don't agree that using obsolete and rare kanji improves a learner's ability to read/write Japanese. Just as it's better to be exposed to some natural speech, it's better to read conventional Japanese. Luckily, learners will be exposed to much more writing than his. But why encourage such indiscriminate use by fans? Some fetishes are best kept private.

*btw - Mr AJATT states he never exceeded 25 kanji/day. Followers may wish to take note of this. ;-)

/end public service announcement interruption  :-)

edit: PS - this wasn't directed at anyone specific - just an excuse to comment on what I read while perusing the blogs one day...

Last edited by Thora (2010 January 16, 1:17 am)

Thank you, as always, Magamo, for the very easy to understand, detailed explanation. It makes total sense now.

Thora wrote:

My guess is that learners somehow adopt this mentality wholesale and overuse kanji without regard for appropriateness or stylistic effect. I don't think it's as simple as not having read enough to know what's normal because tools like Rikaichan mark words that are usually kana.

Is AJATT really that rabidly followed that people even copy the guy's way of expressing himself?

I just thought it was because people either (a) think kanji is interesting (<-- me), or (b) are showing off.

I personally write すごい with kanji most of the time. It's not because I want to look intellectual or smart, it's simply because I prefer words with kanji. Fact is, Japanese is in desperate need of spaces, something most other languages use. But no, no spaces in Japanese. Therefor, kanji is a must for readability. And what is the easiest to read without spaces?
それはすごいですね or それは凄いですね?
I'm personally a strong proponent for the latter.

When there are several kanji to use, I'm completely down with using the common modern forms, but when there's no kanji and there's an overload of kana in the sentence, I use the kanji because I personally find it MUCH easier to read.

EDIT: And no, using katakana is not my idea of a good compromise.

Last edited by Tobberoth (2010 January 16, 9:14 pm)

You should use「五月蝿くて」next time

. Fact is, Japanese is in desperate need of spaces, something most other languages use. But no, no spaces in Japanese. Therefor, kanji is a must for readability. And what is the easiest to read without spaces?

Hey, think about all the trees Japan is saving by not using spaces!

I understand the point about avoiding blocks of hiragana, though that's mostly for aesthetic reasons to me.

Thora wrote:

-Back to Magamo™-  (It'd be great if he had a site.) [btw, how do you type ™? I had to paste it.)

alt+0153

I accidentally memorized a ton of those codes in my youth, back when I thought it was cool to type everything with such varia†ions.

Last edited by nest0r (2010 January 16, 10:40 pm)

That was my fault, J7. I took the kanji use comment as an opportunity to advance my little Counter-Propaganda Truth Campaign (which was triggered by the nonsense that Blogland is perpetuating.) Please have patience with me.   I'll try keep it to specific topics affecting learners and objective examples to avoid any flame wars.

I agree, btw:  ;-)

To use kanji indiscriminately suggests that you actually don't know what you're doing. I think AJATT played a role in making people think it was actually something to be proud of.

Last edited by Thora (2010 January 16, 11:42 pm)

I think we should have a further conversation on this point about the kanji forms. It's something I've often debated with myself, but haven't come to any final conclusions.

More ways to write create more shades of meaning for the writer, that's a simple fact. 凄い, すごい, スゴい, to use that example. To use a metaphor of painting, words are the paints of the artist; with more hues on the palette, finer details can be forged.

An aversion to rare forms either stems from:

A) How it contrasts to the 'norm' of the linguistic culture. Writing a word in kanji that is always written in hiragana will bother the viewer simply because of how it opposes their concept of 'normality' in the language. Because it's not common, and goes against what they're used to, it grates.

B) difficulty in remembering the kanji form, and using hiragana because it's far more accessible.

However, B) has never made sense to me. Yes, fewer strokes will be easier to write, however the 'ease' of something is directly related to how common it is. If everyone always write 蠟燭 instead of ろうそく, then it's extremely easy to write and recognize, because it's the 'norm'. Language is not difficult for those who grow up in it, as it's simply the default means of communication. No objective difficulty exists. Those who write in traditional Mandarin have just as much ease with the characters as those who write in simplified.

Many of the kanji forms that aren't in active use are also not that way due to difficulty. 煩い, to use an earlier example, is very easy to write. It is written in hiragana not because of any challenge in writing and recognition, but simply because the hiragana form has become the 'norm' of the linguistic culture, and speakers of a language are in general sheep to those norms. Also, it can be noted that prior to the simplifications, many of the kanji forms WERE the standards.  何處 rather than どこ was once the norm rather than the exception, and this wasn't an issue.
Difficulty in handwriting also isn't an issue in modern day, as the majority of written communication is done electronically. The press of a space bar is all that is necessary to write 綺麗 rather than きれい.

Kanji forms also allow for faster reading due to how the brain processes a word written in kanji as a single unit, as opposed to comprehending it as single phonetic elements, which hiragana are.
綺麗な薔薇 can be processed more joltingly than きれいなばら.

Then the question arises: what is the logical reason for the use of hiragana forms as opposed to kanji? What political, sociological, and cultural changes lead to the normalization of needless simplicity after WWII?

Also, I am talking about the language's use in literature, and by those older and more proficient in the language, not children of course. On that vein of thought, words associated with children should be written in hiragana to reflect the youthfulness of that object. ぬいぐるみ is more logical from an aesthetic point of the language, as it mirrors the childish association of the item. Writing it 「縫い包み」 would give the word a complete different flavor and mental evocation. Once again illustrating the important use of kanji forms versus hiragana to evince different shades of meaning and imagery in the reader.

Yep,「処」is the simplified version of「處」.処 is simply the bottom partof 處, so people know 何處 is 何処 the same way that people can tell 醫者 is 医者 even if they've never seen 「醫」before.

Last edited by Aijin (2010 January 17, 11:41 am)

Katsuo wrote:

There was a series of four programs on this topic broadcast by NHK in September 2009 (details). The series is being repeated in February 2010 on Tuesdays, starting the day after tomorrow.

...unfortunately I don't have any way to get at NHK :-(

One of katakana usages in proper nouns like Japanese names is to indicate that the author knows/recognize the names phonetically. For example, if they are close friends, kanji might not pop up in the author's mind when s/he says the names because to him/her the names are sounds rather than strings of kanji characters on paper. This doesn't mean the author doesn't remember the kanji, but you can emphasize the fact that you recognize the names phonetically, not as characters. It can show intimacy, but might be because the author really doesn't know kanji. If the latter is the case, they may just be the author's acquaintances.

By the same token, you can add a whatyamacallit kind of sense to a word when you spell it in katakana. You don't have a firm grasp of the meaning or pronunciation but roughly know how it should be pronounced. It's often followed by expressions like とかなんとか (or something).

Also, some Japanese people have kana names. The given name of my grandma on my mother side is in katakana. The girl I had a huge crush on when I was in junior high had a hiragana name. There are Japanese men who have kana names too. So it's not very surprising to see kana given names on a blog post.

Kana family names are much rarer, but some Japanese do have kana family names. Most likely they're naturalized citizens or their descendants. I think they're 120% Japanese.

There are many other possible reasons the author used katakana. It might simply be his or her personal writing style. Maybe there is a special reason kanji is inappropriate in the situation. It's impossible to know the reason without even reading the blog post.

Last edited by magamo (2010 February 01, 7:01 pm)

magamo wrote:

I think they're 120% Japanese.

Are these 相撲 you are referring to?