Final Box sort order oddity?

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mcfate Member
From: Ohio USA Registered: 2007-09-02 Posts: 10

I try to review 100 to 150 kanji per day, keeping ahead of the "due" dates for reviews. As a result, almost all of my cards are in the final box (7+ reviews), and I cycle through the entire set about once a month.  I notice that if I visit the reviews twice in a day, I see several repeats from the final box, on the second visit.

For example:  I did my review earlier today and missed five cards, which I've gone over a couple of times and they are now in the "two review" box.  The remaining 3002 cards are in the seven-plus box.  If I go to the "review fresh" link...

http://kanji.koohii.com//review?type=fresh

... the first five cards I get will be the ones in the two-review box, moving them up to the three-review box.  That's expected, since the "seven-plus" box is rotated quickly enough that it should be months before the earliest due date in that box.

Then, the next four cards that I get to review (out of the "seven-plus" box) are ones from the "seven-plus" box that I already reviewed today.  That's not expected.

If a card is in the final box, and is reviewed correctly, shouldn't it be moved to the end of the final box, more or less?  (I assume there is some "slop" inserted in the sort by due-date so that the cards aren't seen in the exact same order every time.)

It's not a big deal, and I would assume that few others use the site the same way, so I'm not asking for anything to be done about it.  Just wondering what might be going on.

ファブリス Administrator
From: Belgium Registered: 2006-06-14 Posts: 4021 Website

EDIT: not related to reconnect link (the reconnect bug may cause adouble review, which will jump a card two stacks.

If you're seeing cards twice, it is most likely that your session expired, or you closed the browser/window without going to the review summary. You must click "End" to make sure all card answers are "flushed" to the server. See here

If a card is in the final box, and is reviewed correctly, shouldn't it be moved to the end of the final box, more or less?

No, there is a randomize interval, which is wider for the last boxes than the first. That's because you can't randomize 3 day base interval on 30 days, and it won't be very helpful to randomize the 6 month delay over a few days.

Still, base interval + random interval (to spread cards) should never reschedule a card on the same day, not even remotely close to the scheduled date of the last review; because each interval is at least twice that of the previous one, and the spread intervals (random amount) maximum negative (and positive) adjustment is between 1/3 (lower box) to 1/8 (highest box) of the base interval.

The higher base interval (not counting +50% "Easy") is 240 days, with a spread of -30 to +30 days. For 3 days base interval (second box), the spread is only -1 to +1 days, so the minimum interval is 2 days. So even if you reviewed before and after your timezone setting-based "midnight" time, you can't see the same card during reviews.

It shouldn't happen that you review twice the same flashcard, on the same day (understanding "day" where the zero hour is based on your Profile's time zone setting); because minimal interval is two days (including reviewing "relearned" pile from the Study page).

mcfate Member
From: Ohio USA Registered: 2007-09-02 Posts: 10

ファブリス, thanks for the reply.

I am pretty good about clicking "end."  Plus, the "repeats" are not uniformly from the last ten cards reviewed in the previous session, which would be the case for progress not saved, if I understand the site's operation correctly.

I wonder if this is the reason:

ファブリス wrote:

The higher base interval (not counting +50% "Easy") is 240 days, with a spread of -30 to +30 days.

... coupled with the fact that I'm cycling through the entire stack much more quickly than I would be if I waited for cards to expire -- in ~25 days.  The 240 +/- 30 day window should span the review due-dates of just about all of the 3,000 cards already in the box, since they were all hit within the last month with a similar window.  If I get lucky and get a low randomizer ("-30") for one card that I review today, might it end up towards the front of the entire box?  (A quick-and-dirty calculation suggests it should likely be behind a few hundred cards... so maybe that does not explain immediate repeats, though it could explain why I see the same card again in a few days.)

One other question:  If I click "yes" (instead of "easy"), does a previous selection of "easy" get cleared?  (Or is "easy" status possible to turn off in some other way?)  I used the "easy" button often in the early days, for kanji that I didn't think I'd ever forget (e.g., "four")... but at this point I think I'd prefer the rotation to be the same for all cards.

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mcfate Member
From: Ohio USA Registered: 2007-09-02 Posts: 10

For what it's worth, I went through and carefully recorded all the card numbers.  Here is the result of today's study:

Initial state of my cards:
Box 4: 964, 1800, 2030, 2188, 2562
Box 6: 1444, 1634, 2051, 2207
[everything else in Box 8]

First review of the day, I saw these cards in order("*" = missed):

1800, 2030, 2562, 964, 2188 (all from Box 4),
2051, 1444, 2207, 1634 (all from Box 6),
And then I got, from Box 8 (divided in groups of 10 for later reference):
(A) 55, 691, 450, 276, 1748, 610, 2235, 207, 2905, 2933,
(B) 46, 792, 320, 2281, 1537, 1194, 403, 2359, 2450, 2833,
(C) 2808, 852, 2719, 1309, 1166, 2534, 1833, 1202, 1519, 2887,
(D) 160, 1798*, 2322, 2097, 1453, 1812, 1737, 2728*, 1928, 502,
(E) 1819, 112, 1621, 183, 2164, 374, 1881, 1963, 2702, 444,
(F) 1579, 1509, 613, 2701, 1451, 2578, 2332, 181, 2911, 2867,
(G) 2696, 2380, 1921, 2137, 2901, 108, 1754, 1153, 1373, 1684*,
(H) 841, 457, 1741, 2370, 890, 901, 1562, 571, 2490, 935,
(I) 1552, 2714, 1923, 779, 2935, 437, 299, 2402, 2962, 847,
(J) 2026, 2227*, 2058, 2715, 1273, 2309, 185, 677, 480, 1859,
(K) 2566, 201, 516, 654, 363, 864, 376*, 372, 2772, 2091,
(L) 581, 2301, 2975, 2859*

I stopped there because I'd exceeded 100 reviews and missed my sixth one for the day.  I carefully clicked on "End", went back and reviewed/cleared the failures.  Then I returned to the "review fresh" link, and here are the cards that I was given, in the order I saw them:

376, 2728, 1798, 2227, 2859, 1684 (the six I missed today),
2562, 1800, 2030, 2188, 964 (the five that started the day in Box 4),
2207, 1444, 2051, 1634 (the four that started the day in Box 6),

So far, that's what is expected.  The just-failed cards should be scheduled for review almost right away.  The ones that started in Box 4 and were just moved to Box 5, should be due next.  The ones that started in Box 6 and were just moved to Box 7 should be before any of the ones in Box 8 (since I turn over Box 8 so quickly).

And then I got, from Box 8:

1833 (C-7 above), 444 (E-10 above), 2450 (B-9 above), 2322 (D-3 above),
792 (B-2 above), 2719 (C-3 above), 2605, 809, 737, 451, 2529, 1018,
1938, 1207, 2214, 2455, 1155, 896, 2128, 527, 865, 884, 950, 1538,
2512, 2427, 1608, 1219, 1604, 904, 2462, 557, 1624, 2697, 2644, 2585,
1945, 2139, 422, 1191, 369, 760, 1954, 2916, 2917, 1347, 2932, 2850,
2820, 956, 554, 390, 2198, 1536, 2179, 2382, 2103, 122, 2010, 2652,
1445, 2204, 669, 952, 415, 794, 2804, 2976, 293, 1526, 1237, 2307,
1009, 2316, 493, 297, 1854, 1828, 153, 1905, 1502, 955, 1716, 324,
1275, 2247, 2436, 123, 1509 (F-2 above).

When I got up to Box 8, the first six cards I saw where ones that I had just reviewed from Box 8.  Then I had to go through almost 100 more cards before I saw the seventh repeat from the earlier group of Box-8 reviews.

The six up-front suggests to me that it is an artifact of the rate at which I cycle through Box 8.  So... I don't think there's any general issue with the sort ordering, it's my fault for not using the card boxes "properly" (waiting for cards to expire).

ファブリス Administrator
From: Belgium Registered: 2006-06-14 Posts: 4021 Website

Thanks for the detailed report.

mcfate wrote:

One other question:  If I click "yes" (instead of "easy"), does a previous selection of "easy" get cleared?

Yes. Cards in box 8 rotate in the topmost box, and the base interval is "reset" with every answer. The answer sets the base interval to 6 months ("Yes") or 9 months ("Easy") for the top box, plus/minus adjustment to spread cards.

The random adjustment does mix your cards in non orderly fashion, but the "spread" is meant to be a fraction of the base interval. It is meant to affect the base interval only minimally, meaning a card may be reviewed sooner, or later, but sometime around where it would have been good to review it. Eg. a new card can't be scheduled in months, a box 8 card can't be scheduled for the next few days. However if you cycle through the last stack within one month, you will be adversely affected by the random spread of cards.

EDIT: I think if you really want to ignore the SRS for the time being, you can remove and re-add all cards at once, and cycle through the blue pile once. Then remove, re-add, rinse repeat. But after going through 2000 cards again, you have a chance to settle with the SRS, and continue with the expired cards only.

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