fugu68 wrote:

コップ = glass, tumbler

from the Dutch 'kop' or Portugese 'copo'

ペンキ = paint

from the Dutch 'pek'

ノイローゼ = nervous wreck, nervous breakdown

From the German 'Neurose'

バイキング = all-you-can-eat buffet

Wikipedia blames this one on the Imperial Hotel in Tokyo, which wanted to introduce a smorgasbord but felt that was too hard to pronounce. So they had a brainstorming session and 北欧と言えばバイキング won...

コンセント = electrical socket/outlet

Wikipedia says this came from (a) the abbreviation of 'concentric plug' to コンセントプラグ (used to mean the whole plug-and-socket assembly) and then (b) the breaking of the word in two (!) to give one half to the socket and one half to the plug...

バリカン　= hair clippers

From the French brand name Barriquand et Marre. Compare ホッチキス, ホチキス (stapler, from Hotchkiss).

Three loanwords from other languages than English, three weird manglings, and I guess the shortcake is just meaning drift...

pm215 wrote:

fugu68 wrote:

コップ = glass, tumbler

from the Dutch 'kop' or Portugese 'copo'

Haha, I just assumed it came from the word cup, which we use quite a bit up in Canada 'eh ^_^

For what it's worth, I don't think you need to study the etymology of loanwords you learn to understand they come from various languages. It's obvious with a little thought that many of the katakana that seem like 'mangled English' are in fact derived from other languages. Doesn't take some conventional notion of a classroom to create a special mentality for it, just point it out and move on.

Also, it's fair game to have fun with the uncanny valley effect of loaned words, and also to look objectively at the difficulties Japan seems to be having with loanwords. At least, from what I've read. It's not like the process is a finely honed machine. Japanese has its own unique characteristics... I don't know enough to have any experience outside of common loanwords I have no problems with or words I initially stumble over (or the opposite, pick up more quickly) due to their similar yet abbreviated acronym-like differences.

Frankly, overall I love how katakana looks, so that's why I like that it's used so often for loanwords. That said, I also like some of the top-down/bottom-up reform ideas expressed in an essay linked in another thread. (http://appling.kent.edu/ResourcePages/C … lution.htm)

Last edited by nest0r (2009 November 29, 2:49 pm)

nest0r wrote:

For what it's worth, I don't think you need to study the etymology of loanwords you learn to understand they come from various languages.

I don't either, really. I think it's useful to know that some katakana words are from non-English languages, or abbreviated, or wasei eigo; but that's just because then you don't get quite so confused when you encounter one and can't work out what it's supposed to be in English... I do think etymologies are interesting, which is why I looked those up.

(I think that essay on gairaigo would be more convincing if it compared the Japanese approach to translating computer-related vocabulary with that used by more other foreign languages. Are more countries at the French end of the spectrum or the Japanese? Do the French actually prefer their legally-mandated 'real French' terms, or is it just an attempt to turn back the tide of ordinary people just using loanwords? Etc.)

yudantaiteki wrote:

In general I think a lot of people studying Japanese get too hung up on the writing system; saying things like "I'm not going to use loan words because I don't like katakana" or "I like kanji so I'm going to write as much as I can in kanji".  Focus on Japanese, not the writing system, and let the IME do its job.  What is natural Japanese has nothing to do with what symbols are used to represent the words when written down.

Writing kanji more at the beginning is a decent strategy for learning it more quickly, but definitely ought to be phased out a lot in order to avoid looking, like Jarvik7 once wrote I think, like you're talking like a douche. Doesn't Khatzumoto write in lots of old/unnecessary kanji? hehe

That's probably a great way to get past any kind of uncanny valley effect when learning new loanwords, just try to focus on the meaning/sound as a Japanese word, don't try to make of the katakana a signal to decipher its origins--unless you have fun with that sort of thing like pmsthx1138 mentioned above.

nest0r wrote:

Writing kanji more at the beginning is a decent strategy for learning it more quickly

I guess I don't ever think it's a good learning strategy to use kanji where native speakers rarely or never use them.  Learning to read and write Japanese isn't just about memorizing shapes, it's also about learning how to use them to write Japanese, and writing things like 未だ and 迄 makes your Japanese look like you don't know what you're doing.  It seems to me a little like trying to work a new grammatical pattern into everything you say, even where it doesn't sound natural, in order to get more practice using it.

Last edited by yudantaiteki (2009 November 29, 8:09 pm)

yudantaiteki wrote:

In general I think a lot of people studying Japanese get too hung up on the writing system; saying things like "I'm not going to use loan words because I don't like katakana" or "I like kanji so I'm going to write as much as I can in kanji". Focus on Japanese, not the writing system, and let the IME do its job.

The katakana example seems a bit extreme - I can't imagine "a lot of people" saying that. I've noticed a few kanji enthusiasts, but they tend to chill out once they get some exposure to more typical usage. IME more likely encourage over-kanjification, rather than corrects it. But if that initial passion helps keeps people motivated, that's not such a bad thing.

I don't see how an interest in the writing system interferes with learning Japanese however.  But perhaps you had in mind people who focus exclusively on kanji?

What is natural Japanese has nothing to do with what symbols are used to represent the words when written down.

Could you clarify what you mean here? Are you recommending that learners should first focus on listening, speaking, grammar, etc. skills and then tackle reading? (As the author of the book you teach from suggests?) Or are you saying that written Japanese is purely a phonetic representation of speech?

as soon as you are in contact with japanese people - in japan -  those abbreviations become natural. many japanese living outside japan don't catch up with the latest katakana.

the male mid-twenties student talking about how is looking forward to renewing his "paama"
??
permanent wave / perm.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned スマート yet、as in, スマートな体.

frlmarty wrote:

nest0r wrote:

I remember when the Académie Française or whatnot tried to change the word for 'email' to something else. I don't think anyone besides that group used the word. Well, I used it a bit because I liked it better, but no one understood what I was talking about so I stopped.

ah - courriel, ordinateur, and my favourite: pièces jointes (attachments!!!)

hehe, 'ordinateur', that's another one I meant to use more. Ah well.

In this case it was Japanese: The Spoken Language, a textbook by Jorden and Noda.

yudantaiteki wrote:

nest0r wrote:

Writing kanji more at the beginning is a decent strategy for learning it more quickly

I guess I don't ever think it's a good learning strategy to use kanji where native speakers rarely or never use them.  Learning to read and write Japanese isn't just about memorizing shapes, it's also about learning how to use them to write Japanese, and writing things like 未だ and 迄 makes your Japanese look like you don't know what you're doing.  It seems to me a little like trying to work a new grammatical pattern into everything you say, even where it doesn't sound natural, in order to get more practice using it.

I've made quite a few posts on abnormal kanji usage already, so I don't want to seem too repetitive, but: by not using kanji forms, they're threatened by extinction, and an interesting dimension of the language is basically smothered through neglect of usage. As it is, most of the younger generation in Japan cannot even read a lot of the traditional characters, making many names, and pre-reform literature out of their reach.

For most people, this of course doesn't really matter: they're perfectly content to write そば instead of 蕎麦, and ろうそく instead of 蠟燭, and why not? It's easier to write, remember, and they're rarely encounter the kanji forms since most other people don't use them either.

However, once you focus on literature, kanji forms present an extra dimension to nuance of expression in writing. Most languages are limited by a single writing system, and thus are restricted to synonyms in order to create similar meanings with subtle differences. Japanese, however, is able to convey so much more detail with a single word, based upon how it is writen. 掛詞 are a nice example I suppose. In literature, the writing system used itself can display character traits, feeling at that time, etc. I've given examples in other posts I've made, but I don't really know how to fish them up.

Constant use of all kanji forms 24/7, I agree is a bit tiresome due to the contrast to normal writing, but its occasional use adds artistic flair to writing syles, as well as placing emphasis in certain situations. Also, it might be important to note that while it's common to not use many kanji forms, this will change based upon the social circle you're interacting with. In America, for example, many of the teens type in abbreviated, ungrammatical English. Many Japanese youth, and the less educated, will do this as well. But if you interact with the more educated people, you'll see a much higher use of kanji forms, etc. I am a member of a few Japanese literature groups (I think you call them book-clubs in English?) and the majority of people never write きれい, it's always 綺麗, for example. Using too much hiragana when kanji would serve, is often a sign of laziness and lack of education to the more literate of society.
And to some people, some of the simplified characters are just stupid, often because the original meaning was lost through the simplification. I've met many people who always write 龍, never 竜, etc.
Though if you have to write quickly, of course it makes since to use simplified ... a lot of teachers in Japan nowadays even use some of the Mandarin characters rather than the Japanese ones when they write on the board.

On a personal level, the various methods of writing a word are attractive to me because sometimes I really get bored of writing the same thing. On Monday I might write どこ, but come Tuesday I'll switch to 何処, and by Friday go for 何處, only to revert back to どこ the next day. Writing "どこ" everytime is just plain dull to me.