Very well-written, thermal.

That was an extremely honest and straightforward posting.  I hope that I can learn to be that introspective in my own thinking...  In any case I, and I'm sure everyone else wishes you the best in your future endeavors, whatever that may be.

Last edited by mafried (2009 August 31, 6:10 am)

I think that a lot of what you describe is particular to living in a foreign country, and then perhaps particular to living as a foreign-born person in Japan.  My sense is that people here are almost never out to do you wrong, despite what may look on the surface like discriminatory, condescending, or otherwise unfavorable treatment.  It takes a long time to get around that.  Maybe to some extent you don't get over it, you just have to find a way through it.

I have felt and done almost all of the things you mention here in the year that I have been in Japan thus far.  I have *very* slowly learned to not take it personally when someone doesn't answer me in Japanese or assumes I can't speak/understand/write etc.  It's all part of the journey.

The best advice I ever got about not liking being complimented on my Japanese came from a Japanese person - "Well buddy, it's never going to stop happening, so you'll just have to get used to it."  It's true - and it extends to other things like being watched as I walk down the street, "impolite" or presumptuous questioning from some people, and a lot of the other things we all find more or less disagreeable.  What's going to be more likely to change - my attitude, or are Japanese people as a whole just going to suddenly become more sensitive to my perspective, my wants, and my needs?  The answer is obvious, but it took me a long time and a lot of headache to reach this conclusion.

On that note, I used to read Debito.org (I'm sure many of you are familiar with Debito Arudou) for political and social commentary, but I tried an experiment:  I stopped reading it altogether, and within a week my outlook on living here did what felt like a 180.  I couldn't have let myself arrive at the aforementioned conclusions if I was always bombarding myself and feeding my insecurities with that particular perspective on Japan.  The same goes for listening to other foreigners' stories about their hardships or all of the "injustices" done to them: I just don't do it, insofar as it's possible.  Reason being that when you hear a story that hits so close to home for you, you live it out in your mind - you experience yourself for a moment as the foreigner being denied the apartment, being stopped by the police, constantly proving your Japanese ability, being derided at work, and having people get up when you sit down on the subway.  Once I realized the dangers of carrying around the collective baggage of all foreigners in Japan, I think I became empowered to deal with my own situation with a clearer mind and a sense of humor and humility.  Criticism is great, informed constructivism trumps all.

For most of us here, this has a lot to do with language ability.  We cannot be full adult members in Japan until we are literate, and we absorb a lot of really intense motivation to learn from the challenges we face every day.  That's good, but it needs to be tempered with a good-natured sense of humor and a humble willingness to meet others (and yourself?) as they are, warts and all, and still find a way to thrive in spite of obstacles.

You mentioned the danger of thinking that things will be better when you get good at Japanese or go to Japan.  I think you are completely on target here.  We language learners who are enthusiastic about a foreign culture spend a lot of time imagining things that have not yet come to pass.  We try to systematize and plan and calculate to find a way through the fog between here and there.  We are, more than anything, often impatient, and hence try to treat ourselves like machines - this is, in my opinion, is why we see so many threads here about "do super amount of x in face-melting y amount of time".  This is so symptomatic of our 現代状況. Perhaps there is legitimate interest in testing the limits of human language learning.  However, I really think that there's a true danger in this attitude, because people are mistaking a few convenient shortcuts for the big picture.  Those posts are NOT about making it through one book, one set of information, because the attitude doesn't stop there - it leads to posts like "x month(s) to JLPT 1" and then "how long to fluency?"

I've digressed (and hijacked your *excellent* thread name - 日本語より自分 - to a slightly different end), but what I found appealing about your post was that you are also encouraging people to see the bigger, long-term picture in language learning, and that's really solid advice that a lot of us would do well to heed.  If we can manage to keep our methods moderated and sustainable and our perspectives fresh for the LONG haul we can't help but succeed, both now and then.

There is no wrong way to approach language study.  Every person should approach it as they feel like, instead of thinking there's a 'correct' way.  It's a natural move to transition from 'intense study' to 'free learning'.  Everyone does this transition when they are ready for it.

Interesting post, you make some good points, and can see where you're coming from from a personal perspective. Do I use it as a distraction? Yes, I think, probably, but then it's at least a goal to work towards. The quote: "Wherever you are in the world, there you are" is very true, but I kinda think, since I'm not exactly going to be the life-and-soul of the party kind of person whatever I'm doing, may as well learn Japanese. Obsessively. ; )
I suppose I also want to make sure I make the most of what free time I have, and I'm sure others feel the same way. I've got a year as a MA student, so am never going to have more free time to devote to it than now. When I can read, however painstakingly, I'll relax a bit.
Not really knowing what progress you're making does probably encourage it, since then setting targets gives you something concrete to work for.

Glad to hear you're more confident now.

Edit: Good point Ice Cream - that it worked for thermal to become fluent doesn't exactly discourage a die hard attitude! I guess it necessitates something of that, you're trying to relearn practically everything in another language.

Last edited by Ampharos64 (2009 August 31, 11:55 am)

thermal wrote:

Learning and knowing Japanese is all and good, but I think it's important to be aware if you:

- are using it as a way to avoid dealing with problems.
- have a link between your Japanese level and worth as a human being.

First, thanks a LOT for your honesty and for your will to share your personal experience with us, indeed we have to look at the big picture from time to time and prioritize things in our life.

I'd like to congratulate you on working your way out of that way of thinking, it's a good thing that you learned from that experience, sometimes we don't learn from what we experience and keep ourselves living stressed, I'm sure that you are thinking now "How did I used to think that way?"

And well said buddy, good luck on your new job

For me, I always try to ask myself (and answer) what brings happiness to my life, or how can I be happy, and it always brings good results.

coverup wrote:

What's going to be more likely to change - my attitude, or are Japanese people as a whole just going to suddenly become more sensitive to my perspective, my wants, and my needs?  The answer is obvious,

I'd like to add, "The world doesn't change, what changes is how we look at it"

coverup wrote:

and having people get up when you sit down on the subway.

This is not the first time I read about this. I don't know why but I want to try it Maybe it shows how some people have small thinkin

Last edited by undead_saif (2009 August 31, 12:34 pm)

Psh, you're on the computer, you're clearly all virtual people.
Heh, yep, if my department is anything to go by, most Latin speakers are not exactly great conversationalists, even those who haven't been dead for 600+ years... Still, don't think people in Medieval Studies are exactly required to be outgoing, so should be safe there.

Thanks for the responses guys.

coverup,

That was a very interesting post. I very much agree with you. I approached Japan as a new start and the chance to outgrow my insecurities. This happened to some degree, but ultimately I didn't make many close friends. I blamed Japanese culture, which was indeed part of it, but now I see that my own inability to deal with that culture which isn't going to change anytime soon was more responsible.

For example, my Japanese friends wouldn't make fun of me. They would give each other shit and have a lot of fun doing it, but I was always praised and respected (I often felt like an ambassador from Australia). I felt left out and not treated as one of the gang which made me often not relax. They sensed this and would generally respond by being more respectful.

I left Japan thinking, man it's too hard to make close friendships here, but now I realise that this isn't quite the case. I come from a very multicultural background and don't feel intimidated by them, but they are different. If I can be secure in myself and not be phased by their cultural anxiety, I can not react and kill the chance of a close friendship. Sadly it took more maturity than I had at the time.

It's strange though. People do things that you would react negatively to in your home country, but you have to look at the big picture. They do these things because they don't know any better (nor should they), but you know their culture and your own so need to be the one to allow them to be themselves, even when it rubs you up the wrong way.

blackmacros,

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that there is anything wrong with studying a lot. By die hard I mean an attitude of "I must become awesome!" or "everything will be good once i am awesome at Japanese/in Japan". If you are happy with yourself and your direction in life, then doing a lot of study is a great thing for your goal of becoming great at Japanese.

It is more when you use Japanese as a way to avoid your self assessment of yourself. "I don't think much of myself, so I will avoid this by judging myself by what I do/my achievements. If I am better than other people then that makes me ok right?". Or putting your study ahead of more pressing things.

For example, whilst I was in Japan one of my major groups of friend in Australia went their separate ways. I now find I have less friends and need to make more. I also am taking JLPT level 1 in December. Now I am actually quite happy now, so I may allow myself to put study ahead of friends for a while, but I know that in the long term I can't keep this up. I could dive into my studies to avoid the scariness of making new friends, but I know that this is just avoidance of something much more important to my life.

So basically it is all about the tone of your study. Yours sounds like "Man Japanese is awesome! studying is awesome! I wanna do this heaps!" which is great. If it was "I'm so worthless and lonely. I'll just keep studying and then go to Japan because I can't deal with my current life situation. Things will be good once I am good and in Japan" then its not so great. (I don't mean to imply anything with this, I have no idea why you are all studying, but I was like this to some degree).

IceCream,

Nice posts. I totally agree with you. Have you read "The power of NOW" by Eckhart Tolle? It is a book on exactly what you are talking about.

Ampharos64,

Good luck with it. Obviously you are the best person to judge if you are using Japanese or Japan as a crutch. Like I said to blackmacros, there is nothing inherently wrong with studying/doing immersion like crazy.

igordesu,

Nice post!

Last edited by thermal (2009 August 31, 6:20 pm)

TaylorSan,

Nice post! I also found that whilst I initially and for a long time approached it in the wrong way, it was something of a precursor to being able to approach it in the right way, as something fun that has a nourishing effect on my life.

IceCream,

Thank you, that was useful for me. I agree with pretty much everything you say. However, I think thinking is more of a symptom than a cause. It allows you to avoid the emotion of the moment and to attempt to minimise damage to yourself through the misguided use of your intellect. It is also the mechanism via which we can avoid facing our pain and fear. We can keep constantly on edge and busy with thoughts to stop the emotions we are afraid of from reaching us.

I think that unresolved issues and unfaced emotions are the cause that set people down this path of avoidance. That being said, stopping thinking does cause our issues/emotions to rise to the surface allowing them to be dealt with so it is a way to heal ourselves in my opinion. Other ways involve doing things we fear which can put old judgments about ourselves to rest.

Again, The power of NOW is exactly what you are talking about. I also have a strong aversion to self help books BTW, but there are some gems. (The power of NOW is quite extreme though and I'm not sure I take it quite as far as the author).

The clear answer here is learning Japanese to do Rational Emotive Behaviour Therapy purely in Japanese!