RECENT TOPICS » View all
デカーpost: Anki, card types, learning methods, and other random stuff
Index » General discussion
k. i've seen lots of posts in the last few days i wanted to reply to, but i thought i'd stick it all together in one place.
I want to talk about various things, 1 being the learning resources / real material debate. Secondly, about how i've changed things since i wrote that post on speaking a few weeks ago, and the effects i'm starting to see. And 3rdly about things i've observed from the way my baby cousin is learning to speak english. Sorry if i mash them all together...
(I did Rosetta stone, I've used well over 1000 smart fm sentences, about 400 KO2001 sentences, a chapter of read real japanese, about 600 cards made from dramas i watched, and less than 100 from manga. I didn't finish RTK, and i didn't mine any grammar books, though i do look at grammar books when i need to. So these are the things i can compare.)
**************************
Learning materials vs. Real stuff.
**************************
Using learning materials is without a doubt the quickest way to gain a large passive vocabulary (for understanding things). I don't regret for a second using the learning materials i have, and at some points in the future, i'l probably go back to them to try to cram a whole load more words into my head when i feel i'm starting to plateau.
However, i think they seriously seriously lack in a number of ways, even despite having the audio on smart fm which isn't quite so boring.
The thing that they lack is *context*. This, theoretically, will impact learning in a number of ways. As i do more cards, i'm finding it to be more true.
I've seen people suggest in other threads that you should amass big collections of subs2SRS material and then search it when you come across a word. I really disagree with this, unless you don't have much time. When you do this, i think you give up nearly all of the benefits of taking things from context in the first place while still retaining the worst parts. It is a step up from learning materials in that you might sometimes remember the context it was said in, and at least it's more fun. But, for instance, i saw Blackmacros wrote that once the sentences are in your deck, they don't have the context anyway, so become the same as learning materials in a way. I agree.
****************************************************
Using Anki in better ways to improve different skills and keep context
****************************************************
I think the best way to a.) keep context, and b.) make anki not just something to get done with in a day, but to really enjoy, is to make *double sided cards*. Nowadays, opening anki each day is like opening a bag of sweets that i just want to keep dipping into throughout the day, rather than the vegetables you have to eat as quick as possible before you can have your pudding. But, it's sweets that are even better for you than vegetables!! big_smile
This is also much nicer because, while there are some interesting or funny one liners that you can SRS, what really makes things funny in dramas a lot is the interaction between characters. It's not any particular one line that they say.
Anyway, here's a list of some of the card models i've set up (from dramas), and what skills i think they help with:
* RESPONDING CARDS
---Front side: Picture and Audio of someone saying something.
---Back Side: Response to what they said picture and audio, Japanese transcriptions of both.
---Tested on: How well I can respond (remember the back side). This includes both grammar and vocabulary. But for the first few times I see the card, i test on how well i can shadow both sides only.
What kind of sentences: Sentences that I should really know how to say already on the back. Generally, at the moment, they are short, and relatively easy.
---How it helps: It really makes you think about what the other person has said, and how you can respond to it. Even if you can't remember the actual response, you can amuse yourself trying to make up your own. As i get better, these cards will probably get longer. Atm they contain only short answers, short comments, or well used polite phrases to be used in situations, though i do have a few memorable longer ones.
Since you are presented with the situation in which to say these sentences on the front side, i think it'll be good training for fluid output in a real situation. I know that, because of these cards, I can think in short full sentences more often than I could before, anyway.
* PRONUNCIATION / READING CARDS
---Front side: Picture and audio and transcription of someone saying something. Transcription of the response.
---Back side: Picture and audio of the response
---Tested on: How well i have remembered the different pitches and pronunciation of words within the sentence. Obviously if I couldn't read the response to start with, I have to fail it.
---How it helps: Trains you to remember how pitch varies in a sentence along with the words and the mood of the response. Before i started doing these cards i rarely took any notice of pitch or tone at all.
* READING -> LISTENING cards
---Front side: Picture and transcription of a sentence.
---Back side: Audio of the transcription, audio, picture, and transcription of response,
---Tested on: How well i can type in the sentence including kanji.
---How it Helps: Same as normal reading cards, except the audio response helps with the first two types of cards, and makes it slightly more contextful and fun. I also say the sentence trying to include pitch before writing it, and shadow the response.
* LISTENING / SHADOWING -> READING & LISTENING
---Front side: Picture and audio
---Back side: Transcription of 1st side, picture, audio and transcription of response.
---Tested on: How well i can type the sentence by hearing it
---How it helps: Same as normal listening cards, again it helps with the first two types of cards, and i shadow both sides of the card.
* OTHER
other one sided cards that test either the front or back side of the other types of cards, either for reading or listening.
I don't make all these cards for every single sentence or anything. I pick the areas I think will be weakest. Unless it is a one liner, I try to have one double sided card at least, but generally a few one sided cards to help the process that i can probably delete once mature. For example, if the sentence contains Kanji i don't know, i'l generally focus on reading cards for it. Sometimes if someone's speaking fast i'l try to do a listening card for it. If only one side of the card will be a challenge, i'l use only one double sided card, and focus it with one sided ones. Usually i add 2-3 types of card for one clip, but if both sides are difficult, it might be 5 or 6. It's no problem to delete or change them when they get too easy. There's other variations on cards also to try later.
---Why are double sided cards better?
I really think that double sided cards are a ton better than one sided cards!! Seriously, so you get a card from your subs2SRS deck that says "私は心配していってるの！". 1. i'd never add it because i know all the words. 2. If i did add it, i'd probably be going, why is the いってる there again?? Now make that the back side, with the front side going, "何で水を差すこと言うんだよ". Both sides are helped by having the other side there. Now you go, oh, yeah, i remember that! Your mind flashes back to the situation you watched.
Or, the audio turns out to be a little difficult on one of your subs2SRS cards, and you end up having to delete it, despite liking the sentence. With double sided cards the context gives you enough to remember it.
With double sided cards, where i would have only been able to give a one word response a month ago, i can respond with some sentences i know are correct if the situation occurs.
**************************************
About japanese vs. english definitions vs. context
**************************************
A few weeks ago, i thought it didn't really matter about english definitions. I still don't think it matters to the point where you should force yourself to use a japanese dictionary if you can't understand the definitions, because in a few months it'll be easier. But, i have noticed a difference, both since i started using these cards, and since starting to use japanese definitions. Before, when i was using the study resources, with english definitions, my mind would flick naturally to the english translation on seeing the word. On using japanese definitions, sometimes my mind goes to the japanese definition i looked up, but in most cases, those definitions only went into fleshing the concept of the word out, and my mind skips straight to the context i associate it with instead. I dunno, but that seems better...
*************************************
About children's learning processes and speaking
*************************************
There's an interesting book about this, called "the language and thought of the child" (or something similar) by Piaget about how childrens thought, speech, and grammatical knowledge develops at different ages. It's pretty easy read, i think, but i havent read it for years, so...
Anyway, i've been watching my little cousin learning to talk for the last year. He's now 2 years and 4 months old. For anyone who says, well, learning to repeat sentences isn't going to help you to communicate naturally - i disagree.
Young children, it seems, mimic everything before they can produce it on their own. My little cousin repeats things after someone says it a huge amount of the time still. He's saying things on his own, but they are very short sentences that he has definiately learnt already. He even mimics their tone of voice, the stress they put on words, etc. It's how children learn to use words in the right context.
He has tons of problems with grammar, past and future tense, putting in all the grammatical words, etc. "please can i leave the table" sounds more like "pleaseculeaventable", because he hasn't yet differentiated all the different words that make the sentence up. When making up sentences on his own, he generally misses them out altogether.
Have you ever heard a small boy or girl say something that seems strange for their age? It's because they mimic their parents tones of voice and vocal patterns even when parents don't intend them to.
Understanding is really important. You can tell that he understands almost everything you say because he responds appropriately. He can't say everything on his own, but when he does say things, he says them in the right context. 8 months ago, he didn't. He'd sit at the table and say random words... "eyes" "yes, we've all got eyes" "plane" "yes, you went on a plane on holiday, didn't you". etc.
i guess i'm rambling a bit, but the point i was going to make is that learning to respond with sentences you've taken from different places in the exact way that they said them isn't going to hurt your ability to create your own sentences in the long run. Children don't learn a dictionary and then work out when to use which definition. They just repeat stuff until they get it. The first stage of that is repeating after someone when they say something. Then they say random stuff. Then they say individual words in the right context. The second stage is repeating short sentences they've heard people say before in the right context. After that, the sentences will get longer. How old were you before you really started speaking with any creativity?
He doesn't mind if he doesn't get all the grammar exactly right, because he's always got someone to repeat the sentence again straight after he says it. "want go play swings" "You want to go and play on the swings? Ok, let's go". The same thing can be acheived with Anki, if you make cards well, i think...
I know that we're adults rather than children, which is great, cos we can speed the whole process up. But i'd still kind of like to skip the part where i have really awkward conversations taking 10 minutes to string together a bunch of random words if i can... I can see how having a large vocabulary helps with understanding, but it's equally important to know how to use them. If you tried to teach my cousin all the names for different shades of red at once, he probably would find it a lot harder to just say things like "red sock". if you see what i mean?
Last edited by IceCream (2011 February 15, 3:01 pm)
I can't believe I missed this post until now. First of all, I really like the concept behind the two sided cards. Once I'm through with all my JLPT/efficiency stuff I will definitely give that a shot because...
IceCrean wrote:
But, for instance, i saw Blackmacros wrote that once the sentences are in your deck, they don't have the context anyway, so become the same as learning materials in a way. I agree.
...I agree with the fact that you're agreeing with me. 
As it is, sentences in an SRS really have no context anymore. Hopefully this double sided card thing will help with that.
By the way, I believe this exchange is what you were referring to.
blackmacros wrote:
Codexus wrote:
Are sentences from "native sources" really more interesting once they are taken in isolation?
Having completed KO2001 and been mining native stuff for around a month now I've come to essentially the same conclusion. Sentences in an SRS have no context outside themselves. Sentences, once they have been mined and placed in the SRS, are nothing more than a collection of words. Sure they are interesting when you're reading it in your manga. But once its in your SRS its just another sentence. The sentence itself might be funny or interesting; but that is a function of the sentence, not its context. I don't find reviewing natural sentences any more fun or enjoyable than reviewing KO sentences.
Having said that, though, I would like to make a small amendment. If you are reviewing just sentences, once they are in the SRS they are essentially contextless and natural stuff is no more enjoyable than KO. But, I've recently found myself really enjoying my Full Metal Alchemist subs2srs reviews because I *love* the cool voice/acting and audio that I try and shadow on the answer side. When I review those same sentences on my iPhone (sans picture and audio) they're just as boring and dull as the rest of my stuff. So I guess if KO had better voice acting....?
Well yes, that's true; Front and Back, Question and Answer are on all cards. But I think you're being a little facetious 
in the context described here its a little different.
* RESPONDING CARDS
---Front side: Picture and Audio of someone saying something.
---Back Side: Response to what they said picture and audio, Japanese transcriptions of both.
This type of card, the one that caught my attention the most, is less of Question/Answer and more like a combination of two different cards entirely. Normally these 2 facts would be placed on two separate cards. Instead you link them and put them on one card, one on the front, one on the back. Hence "double sided" cards.
Last edited by blackmacros (2009 August 25, 8:04 am)
thermal wrote:
Maybe I am a super genius *crosses fingers* but I do remember virtually everything. For example:
うそっぷ from one piece says : 魚人達は海軍にしょっぴかれたはずなんだが、あいつ一人脱獄したようだ。
He says this to explain the background of an old character that has reappeared to the new characters that don't know him. So this sentence has who is saying it and their character, who it is being said to and their characters. I don't remember the whole episode and every nuance of the context, but anything that is directly relevant I do. This is quite different from a KO sentence which has nothing.
Well certainly everyone is different, and you definitely retain a lot more of the context than I do. Again though, its not so much being able to remember the context. Its the fact thats it not actually *in* that context anymore once its in your SRS. Even if you can remember the context when you review it, you're still not being exposed to the preceding and following sentences/scenes/imagery and all the emotional content that comes with that, which is what actually transform that sentence from a bunch of words into a narrative.
Or maybe you are, and I am just woefully inadequate