YogaSpirit
Member
From: France
Registered: 2009-08-11
Posts: 140
Hey guys,
I've already researched the net and this forum on how to best review and evaluate one's review of RTK.So I'm using a SRS (Anki to name it), and so and so. As advised by Heisig and so many others, I'm only reviewing from "keyword to kanji"".
But I'd like your fresh point of view on the following:
1 - sometime, I can't figure out the shape of a kanji when being presented the keyword by the SRS.
2 - but if I have a look at the story (in which I put the keywords related to the components in bold), I immediately rememeber the shape and can draw it on my hand or on paper.
In such case, should I consider the review of this one kanji card as (see it) AGAIN, HARD, or GOOD?
I consider it as cheating to give the mnemonic story in the time as the keyword, but that's how I practise anyway after reading Khaz's recommendation on AJATT:
"Giving the mnemonic story in the question is not really cheating, because you still have to reproduce the entire kanji from memory. I think Heisig actually suggests that you do, in the book where he gives a sample flashcard…but that might be wishful memory [confirmation, anyone?]. Anyway, I recommend you do it."
What's your thought?
vosmiura
Member
From: SF Bay Area
Registered: 2006-08-24
Posts: 1085
I also recommend failing a card if you look at the story. Don't worry about it,you will learn to remember from the keywords in no time.
IMO Khatzu is mistaken about what Heisig says in the book.
1) Heisig has stories on his flash cards up-side down. That to me suggests it is just because he can't have 3 sided cards. The stories are there for looking at when you forget them, which is totally normal.
2) Heisig doesn't say anything about how to review in an SRS, so point (1) doesn't imply anything about how to pass/fail cards in Anki.
So, does Khatzu's advice work anyway? At least some users here have said it didn't go well in the long term.
Last edited by vosmiura (2009 August 14, 3:44 pm)
Other thoughts: http://forum.koohii.com/viewtopic.php?id=3486
You want the stories to be transient bridges between the keyword cues and the kanji. They are supposed to fade as you master the kanji. This is difficult if, instead of creating good stories that will help you remember the kanji because they're so imaginative and resonate with you, you're simply using a set of directions on the Question side that essentially gives you the answer. You wanna avoid this for the same reason we randomize flashcards--if you're using the recognition of the story's sequence you're just memorizing the list instead of using your recollection of the story to recall the kanji in a way that doesn't depend upon the sequence. Or rather, the sequence is abstract and thus fades more easily than if you have it static and in front of you like a crutch.
This works well because the most minimal cue, the keyword, draws upon maximal information which means you've got a solid foundation to build connections in the mind, this might seem harder, and it is in the short term, but in the long run it's faster, because you're making sure you've got this system of memory hooks, efficient retrieval structures that begin with simple chunks and expand into the complex in the mind, and you get better and better at it as you progress, and they're always there to help even years later.
Okay, I had some sugar and rambled some more, sorry.
Last edited by nest0r (2009 August 14, 3:44 pm)
sup3rbon
Member
From: northeast USA
Registered: 2009-06-27
Posts: 71
I have it set up so that if i click on the card it shows the story underneath the keyword (in anki), and I only click it if I absolutely do not even know where to start for the story even after thinking hard. Usually just seeing the first word is enough to get the neurons firing in the right direction, and I mark the card as hard.
If I mark a card as hard more than twice in a row, the next time after checking the story first I fail it, and I'm sitting at about 90% success rate for non mature cards, and uh, well 90% success rate for mature cards.
Also I should note that only the second 1000 did I start doing that, so only the second thousand cards in my deck have the story option, and only 700 of my cards are actually mature (and of them I've only actually reviewed 90 of them while they were mature), so in terms of long term recollection using this method, I'm not really a good test. In a couple of weeks though I'll let you guys know how it turned out, by then most of my cards should be matured.
Asakk
Member
From: Brazil
Registered: 2009-04-18
Posts: 31
I think it's better to not have the story on the question side (you can put it there with white color so you'll have to select the story to read it in case you fail the kanji).
I used to have the story when I was reviewing, and my retention was always almost 100%, only not 100% because from time to time either I'd place the primitives in the wrong place, therefore making a wrong kanji, or I'd forget a primitive (almost never, except for those primitives used for 2 or 3 kanji only...). But as I was adding more and more kanji and reviewing them I started to feel I didn't remember most of them. Even if I was marking the card to be seen only in 2 months or more, in 4 days I'd not remember it anymore, and the reason was that I was not really thinking about them and their story, but thinking only about the primitives instead, I'd mark "easy" for a kanji only because remembering the primitives were indeed easy. After realizing that I decided to not look at the story anymore, only the keyword. Yeah, at the beginning my retention dropped and has gone from around 97/98% to 85/93%, and I even felt tired from seeing the same kanji over and over (from failing them, or marking them as hard almost all the time), but now that I finished RTK about 2 weeks ago I feel pretty confident that I can remember at least 2000 of the 2042 given the keyword, and a little less if given kanji (as we don't review that way). This was also important because I believe the stories for some kanji just 'faded leaving only the kanji' sooner than I imagined. Many of the kanji I just see keyword and write the kanji without thinking about the story, and that's because I failed them enough to see the keyword and think "ah, it's that one again". And for the ones that still hasn't happened, the story is vivid enough in my mind for me to not fail it.
oregum
Member
From: Chicago
Registered: 2008-10-20
Posts: 259
Website
When I review RtK style cards (Keyword>Kanji) I do it as fast as I can. Basically if the story Kanji doesn't pop into my head = fail. I finished RtK sometime ago so my reviews don't take too long. My policy is fail first, reviews second.
Having said that, there are old cards that I know well from the reading/kanji perspective, but have nearly forgotten from the Keyword. However, the instant I read my story I remember the kanji.
But in life I don't have 5 minutes to recall a story, nor do you have multiple choices. That is why I don't have stories in the question field, and fail any card I don't immediately remember.
YogaSpirit
Member
From: France
Registered: 2009-08-11
Posts: 140
nest0r wrote:
http://forum.koohii.com/viewtopic.php?id=2441
Thanks, but there seems to be a little bug/error. This is what I obtain:
ANSWER/BACK of my CARDS for keyword "CHILD" =
********
了
画数: , Nr: 98
enfant sont ds le porte-bébé : l'emballage est achevé.'">Story
********
What's that "">Story" at the end?
Also, the story should be "Les bras de l'enfant sont ds le porte-bébé : l'emballage est achevé." (that's what I documented in my card). But the beginning of the story seems to have been cut and only stars at "enfant".
Hum? Thx
stoked
Member
From: Switzerland
Registered: 2009-01-09
Posts: 378
Website
Stories on question side = cheating. But then again I've got a picture for each kanji on the question side, which sometimes can be seen as cheating, too. I don't think it really matters that much though. Just get the book done, keep on reviewing and then move on...
Last edited by stoked (2009 August 17, 6:32 am)
mafried
Member
Registered: 2006-06-24
Posts: 766
Perhaps, but I would say the neurology makes it different. You're engaging the other half of your brain, and even if the result of that is jogging your memory to remember the story or primitives, the visual aspect is branching out the connections that keep that kanji firmly rooted in your memory.
My take on it at least. Obviously we're both biased in this regard 
Last edited by mafried (2009 August 17, 11:13 am)
