that's why my beginning sentence said i only read for about 30 seconds lol sorry if i didn`t take an hour to read everything

Mr Tooth why dont you enter a cloistered monastery and learn japanese with the silent monks? According to you listening is useless so lets all not waste our time and study hard. After a few years we can emerge out of our shell and be masters! Yea!Arguing on forums like these is like talking to a wall, so this is the last time for me.

Id argue some more but its a waste of my time. It rather learn some Japanese

Hashiriya, the same can be said with Japanese Listening Advanced. Plus there are many books on tape. To be sure, we have figurative tons of Japanese audio at our finger tips. Scripts, subtitles, transcripts, books on tape, etc. All of them are wonderful resources to those that find pleasure in using them.

It's that I, personally, enjoyed listening to ripped audio and Japanese music on my iPod. The blogs w/ scripts and the books w/ audio files were not exciting. Subs2srs offer a quick way to get a drama into flash card form, then I can manipulate from there.

I'm more than sure had I done the same with the book you mention or with the JLA or other blogs, similar results would come about with listening skills. However, J-Dramas and Anime offer that little extra of visual references and more voices (with corresponding accents and personal quirks). And the ease factor again.

ropsta wrote:

Mr.T wrote:

Stop making things up please? Listening is extremely important.

You ever consider slightly altering the tone of your posts? People seem to misconstrue a lot of what you say.

How about instead of me changing the way I post, they learn English? This IS an English forum after all, if they don't understand what the word "summary" means, they shouldn't be here, at least not entering the discussion.

Especially not since regardless, I never said anything about listening being meaningless. I said listening to stuff you don't understand is meaningless. You can just as well listen to a completely different language.

Last edited by Tobberoth (2009 August 02, 10:47 am)

See nuke? SEE? I told you subs2srs was the shiz... but you were like "nuh uh". Eat your words (and welcome to the I<3Subs2SRS-club)
Also, I thought "Djibouti, Africa" was a joke, lol. Djibouti.. djabooty.. ya booty..

On a serious note, nukemarine, could you please tell me how many hours per day you were listening to japanese stuff?

BTW, having my own little subs2srs setup I know that there are tiny little tricks you can pull to make your process more efficient. (I thought my shiz was perfect, but...)

Last edited by nonpoint (2009 August 02, 11:06 am)

nest0r wrote:

nonpoint wrote:

See nuke? SEE? I told you subs2srs was the shiz... but you were like "nuh uh". Eat your words (and welcome to the I<3Subs2SRS-club)
Also, I thought "Djibouti, Africa" was a joke, lol. Djibouti.. djabooty.. ya booty..

On a serious note, nukemarine, could you please tell me how many hours per day you were listening to japanese stuff?

BTW, having my own little subs2srs setup I know that there are tiny little tricks you can pull to make your process more efficient. (I thought my shiz was perfect, but...)

What are you on about.

Damn you kazelee, you've started such a weird comment fashion trend.

Im refering to the time I posted about the new stuff im doing with subs2srs and nuke was the pessimist. Now the tables have turned.. I mentioned this in a previous post in this thread, you must have read it. I guess its like an inside joke. Dont worry, eat soup

Nukemarine wrote:

Yeah, I've refined my advice over time, but at no time did I say subs2srs is not the way to go, even to you. I disagreed with your idea that it's the only way to go. It's a fine balance that depends on the person.

Yeah you have refined your advice. So how many hours did you listen to japanese?

Oh, and I never claimed my way was the only way to go, if you reread MY thread you'll notice it is chalk full of me saying "this is how _I_ do it". HAH! (also, you realize I was exaggerating with the whole "nuh uh" thing right? Who says nuh uh as an argument?
)
Anyway, don't let these guys get you down on your new process, its is obviously working for you, so do it. Do it A LOT. Do it so much your mom tells you you'll grow hair on your palms if you dont stop doing it.

Last edited by nonpoint (2009 August 02, 11:44 am)

Sorry to repeat this (it just didn't get a reply) but could it be that AJATT did not work for your listening because you did not mine much from your listening before (the way AJATT advises)?  From what I gather you mainly SRSed things from learning resources, so you did not use AJATT other than listening to Japanese all the time.  It's not so much a criticism as trying to confirm if I understood this correctly.

Last edited by vosmiura (2009 August 02, 12:04 pm)

montecristo73 wrote:

I don't know what to make of this post or what to suggest. I've been listening to nothing but Japanese audio material made for Japanese people, more than 10 hours a day for 7 months now. That's a minumum of 2100 hours of Japanese audio in that time. No English movies, music, games at all. Only Japanese. Back in January I didn't get most of what I was listening to without the help of some transcript or translation. Today I can listen to almost any song or TV show and figure out about 75% of what I hear on the first try. I had studied Japanese before trying the AJATT method out and my listening skills didn't get past understanding the basics of text book audio conversations. So I think there's definitely some improvement and the method has worked better than I hoped for, for me at least.

Remember though, in those 7 months, you've also learned a vast amount of vocabulary right? It's quite probable that what you've learned in those 7 months has had more impact than 10 hours of listening each day. I mean, understanding all words in most sentences makes it infinitely much easier to listen than not understanding any words in some sentences. What I mean is, if I say a sentence with loads of words you don't know, the odds of you "hearing what I'm saying" is much lower than if I say a sentence where you understand every word, even if I say the later line much faster.

ropsta wrote:

nest0r wrote:

To be honest, I'd never thought to combine the aural snacking idea w/ stuff mined from subs2srs and integrate it into the immersion environment, even though the underlying logistics of these things are what inform my overall method. I will definitely test out some variations on this, it sounds like an optimal implementation of 'planned redundancy' outside the SRS. Creating those spontaneous yet structured 'ah ha' moments of understanding.

Could you run that back to me in Idjuht? I only got but the haff.

I get these 'ah ha' moments where things I've actively studied crystallize when I encounter them unexpectedly in my environment. The spontaneity of it emphasizes the change of contexts to the point that rather than it qualifying as 'overexposure' that messes with the spacing aspect of 'spaced repetition', it serves as reinforcement, as 'planned redundancy' that cross-strengthens neural connections. That latter aspect I had previously relied on by leaving redundancies in my decks and that's why I was fond of 'frequency-based' resources that had plenty of overlap.

People on this forum have often divided between 'screw it, I'll just mine sentences and stick them in Anki based on the media I take in' and 'I'll study sentences in a structured way and then move on to media I enjoy' and variations between. Then we figured out ways to do both optimally, to suborn 'stuff we enjoy' to our structured learning needs by using subs2srs; however, I had kind of stopped there and just figured I'd gradually apply what I learned in Anki to outside media as I built my skills, or I'd use subs2srs/Anki to 'prime' myself on a per-episode/per-movie basis.

Now my mixed up interpretation of what Nukemarine wrote about subs2srs and audio splicing has me thinking about creating an entire non-SRS media ecology to nurture the SRS materials in a way that retains the structure, the 'fun stuff' source material, the sense of immersion, and spontaneity so that it's continuously creating those 'ah ha' moments.

Now I must speculate on the signal-to-noise ratio.

Last edited by nest0r (2009 August 02, 2:07 pm)

nest0r wrote:

I get these 'ah ha' moments where things I've actively studied crystallize when I encounter them unexpectedly in my environment. The spontaneity of it emphasizes the change of contexts .... leaving redundancies in my decks and that's why I was fond of 'frequency-based' resources .... variations between ....to suborn .... about subs2srs and audio splicing has me thinking about creating an entire non-SRS media ecology to nurture the SRS materials .... the sense of immersion, and spontaneity so that it's continuously creating those 'ah ha' moments.

Now I must speculate on the signal-to-noise ratio.

な~る~ほ~ど~

ｆ（－－；）

Last edited by ropsta (2009 August 02, 5:12 pm)

Vosmiura,

The problem with the divide and conquer approach is the results are not apparent until the individual efforts begin to be put together.

You have to understand when I say I can read, I mean I can read Japanese even with that "paltry" 3000 word vocabulary I have in my Anki deck of activated words. Reading a manga, or following a TV show with sub-titles is not a problem. I can understand a majority straight out and the rest can be gleamed from context. My reading, by virtue of my training vocabulary and reading via an SRS has become impressive. Even my writing has become better, based on accounts from my wife on the contents of my letters. Adding another 3000 words will improve my reading and writing even further without a doubt.

That just didn't seem be having the same impact on listening. Adding another 3000 vocabulary won't do a damn thing for listening if I can't follow a conversation that's only using basic 1000 vocabulary. It was not about the amount words. It was about that chaos we call talking. Those pat phrases that exist in everyday speech that you're not going to find in any one definition or sentence. I mean, a sentence with words you know, but being said at a speed or an accent or a format you can't follow at first. There's no cure for that except to listen till it makes sense, right?

Almost. I have listened and it still did not make sense usually, till it got broken down sentence by sentence. Then I was reminded of those sentences via an srs over time. All the while listening to people using these sentences on my iPod. Now, by virtue of that effecient listening training, I can listen to real conversations with greater ease. I returned to Japan yesterday for vacation, so I'm really noticing the difference the last six months of training.

Then again, we are talking about the divide and conquer approach. The training in Kanji (via RTK) paved the way for my training in grammar (via Tae Kim) and vocabulary (via iKnow). Though this was a slow process over time, my effective efforts (about 700 hours worth) have been saved (via Anki). With the above, it became easier to read Manga, short stories and follow dramas with sub-titles. This became even easier with time and reinforcement.

Maybe I'm just at a point where listening is beginning to make sense, and it's just coincidental that I began subs2srs. I just don't think that's it. To be sure, without the above training in Kanji, vocabulary and grammar, the amount of effort needed to understand sentence by sentence an entire drama would be much larger. Then again, had I started this earlier, then each and every hour of drama I mined would be an hour of drama I could use for listening training.

So should I:

A - use 600 hours of effort (2000 kanji, 2000 words, JLPT 3 Grammar) to get baseline training that makes mining a hour of drama take 10 hours 

B - use 300 hours of effort (1000 kanji, 1000 words, JLPT 4 grammar) to get a baseline but takes 20+ hours to mine drama

C - use 0 hours of effort, where mining a drama could take 100 hours.

With A, I may add an extra 30 - 50 new words to my base 2000 in addition to another 3 to 5 new kanji (mainly in names). I can then use that hour to start listening practice.

With B, I'm assuming I'll have to add many, many more new words and phrases in addition to a large number of kanji. However, I have an hour of usable audio for listening training after that effort. By the time I've reached 600 hours (same as A), I might actually be at a lower amount of actual vocabulary and kanji total, however, I have 15 hours of usable drama audio which I may have listened to for 1000+ hours with benefits to speaking practice.

With C, I think you just tossed a DVD at someone and said "Good luck". Nothing's going to happen for a long time.

So maybe it is with such a great baseline, my listening is advancing fast akin to how one's vocabulary can advance fast with a large baseline we call RTK. I just happened to start this phase of fluency over prepared. It could have started after 1000 kanji, intermediate grammar sentences, and 1000 word base vocabulary. Too late know to regret it, but the next 8 months will be telling if there's merit to my approach.

Moral: although a baseline is great, don't spend too much time on your baseline before you begin using it for the final stages of training fluency and literacy.