I was wondering how long it would take until it would get ugly in here... every thread about dating in Japan I've seen has ended in flames because someone posts stuff like what chorismos did. XD;

I can really only reinforce what I've said before: in my opinion, you should be comfortable with yourself first before attempting to become one half of a couple. There's a quote I once read that I liked that went, "Love is about farting and morning breath." Nonsensical, yes? What it means, IMO, is that love isn't always going to be about hot sex, romantic dinners, soulful talks, and running through a field of sunflowers together; you also have to learn how to arrange yourself with another person, how to make the best decisions for yourself and that other person, and how to make compromises. There are going to be things about the other person you won't like, and you're going to have to have the emotional maturity to either solve these things through long and honest talks, or learn to live with them. Likewise, there are going to be things about you your partner is going to hate -- it's unavoidable, really.

Being secure in who you are as a person BEFORE jumping into a relationship is vital, because you can't expect a relationship to fix everything for you. You can't solve your insecurities by living only for your partner, or that will come back to slap you fast. Your partner is not responsible for solving your issues for you, and neither are you for solving theirs.

Love is nice, but it's still not the melting of two souls: it's two souls doing their hardest to arrange themselves with each other, and to share for life. It seems obvious for me that for that to be successful, both partners should have a well-developed sense of self.

Last edited by Yinake (2009 July 15, 11:30 am)

Kaede wrote:

danieldesu wrote:

Theoretically speaking, a woman would be happier to share 1/10 of a REALLY REALLY great guy than to have a whole REALLY REALLY mediocre guy.

Um. What? Personally I'd rather be single than take either of those options, and I have a feeling I'm not the only one.

I'm a woman also, and personally I also wouldn't (I really don't care about my partner's wealth because I'm dead-set on staying financially independent forever), but there's some proof for this. I've done a little reading on book on evolution in my spare time, and while I'm not an expert, many of these have reinforced the following: that anti-polygamy laws exist mainly to protect men, because, if given the choice, a lot of women prefer to be the second wife of a CEO than the first wife of a woodcutter. Apparently that has been the natural development in all cultures that have had polygamy laws.

Are all women like that? No, but there's a tendency. It makes biologic sense, too: with a gestation period of 9 months and a relatively limited number of possible children in a lifetime, women are a lot pickier when it comes to choosing a mate, and financial security/dominant genes are of the highest concern, whereas men can have a nearly unlimited number of children and thus gravitate more toward keeping harems (as can be seen by the huge number of harems/multiple wives that leaders and emperors of all cultures have had throughout history).

But this is just biology, and as sentient beings, we're still given a choice, so these things don't necessarily have to mean much.

TGWeaver wrote:

chorismos wrote:

I don’t like generalisations ......


(g) Many Japanese women are extremely bitter about perceived/actual injustices and sexual discrimination in Japanese society but repress this through society constraints or sublimate it into their work patterns (overtime/stress/death); this (especially the work patterns, whatever their cause) can build tension in relationships.

Finally, in the words of the immortal Frank Zappa, ‘broken hearts are for arseholes’; if you’re looking for happiness in love or marriage, best of luck and pick up a copy of Proust’s ‘The Captive’ from 'In Search of Lost Time'.

most of what he says is extreme, but there is some truth in it.

So you mean there was no satire within at all? It's not a nihilistic perspective of women in general, intentionally plastered on to the image of a Japanese woman? This individual actually believes what he/she typed?

Damn!? That's fuktup.

one final point: nothing in his post was racist. careful how you use that term. he spoke about culture, but i didn't get the sense that race really entered the picture... unless of course you view japanese people as a race. which i don't.

Good luck convincing people on that one. You could provide all the scientific fact in the universe and still, this would be called racist. Not prejudiced, over generalized, or ignorant. It's RACIST. I do look forward to the day where people can make the distinction without any ulterior motives, though.

Wait, in light of my new conclusion that females are a different race, his post is indeed racist.

aijin wrote:

I would never go to a Japanese messageboard and start saying that all American guys I met were fat, acne-ridden idiots with complete gauche, and I would expect you not to make such wide generalizations either.

And yet, you just did. Whether as an example or not you just posted this. Don't let these sort of things bring you down. BTW the arguments in that post were so overgeneralized they didn't warrant a rebuttal.

yinake wrote:

Are all women like that? No, but there's a tendency.

All women are like that, save for natural born lesbians. The desire for independence is a socially influenced/enforce aspect of the individual. Were you born into a less "normal" environment these sort of tendency would manifest within you as well, no?

But this is just biology, and as sentient beings, we're still given a choice, so these things don't necessarily have to mean much.

Let's not forget choice is a luxury afforded by the few. The more well off you are the more "choice" you have.

IceCream wrote:

danieldesu wrote:

Theoretically speaking, a woman would be happier to share 1/10 of a REALLY REALLY great guy than to have a whole REALLY REALLY mediocre guy.

The reality of this is actually thought to be the reason that the "psychopath" gene has never been evolved out of society...

Chances are that as long as stability is distributed unevenly, I think, these sort of genes will continue to flourish.

Tzadeck wrote:

Likewise, other animals rape each other, and some do it quite often.  Of course, this is called 'coercive sex' (largely because nobody wants to imply that rape can have biological causes).  You can read a bit about it on wikipedia:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_sex … ercive_sex

Should we judge whether or not to rape based on whether there is a biological tendency to do so?  Seems like a no.

There are some places where a woman can be killed for admitting to being raped. Indirectly, rape is acceptable within these sort of societies. Food for thought.

vosmiura wrote:

I went to college tree times and flunked out, and now I think what's the point of college anyway? There are no animals that go on to higher education the animal world.

Sorry, I couldn't resist, and j/k

That's true. But animals are doing whatever it takes to survive. College within the human hierarchy is one of those things. If you decide not to do it you must pursue other means of survival. But by doing this, unless you're a hardcore, punch a chick in the face, alpha type, you're putting your bright feathers through a warm wash and thus dulling them out.

dat5h wrote:

*edit
just so ya know, you were indeed talking about the Osprey in your past post. HOWEVER, the study described in your documentary showed a "rare" occurrence of polyandry (females with multiple male mates) under conditions where every nest was having a mean of less than one baby bird. In essence, the species is dying and are fighting to survive. If this is the case, you might expect a species to adopt a new sexual habit to survive.

Interesting. So they did what it took given their circumstances?

Last edited by kazelee (2009 July 15, 3:28 pm)

bodhisamaya wrote:

As a side note, my former Lama in Maui (deceased now) warned me 12 years ago to stay away from romantic relationships.  The impermanent nature and intense attachment invariably lead to eventual intense suffering.  Besides that, the continuous drama distracts from the more important focus on researching the nature of self.  This, along with his many other wise recommendations, I obviously have not followed.

I've attempted that philosophy multiple times, and I fail miserably every time If you ever find a trick to it, let me know (short of castration).

Aijin wrote:

bodhisamaya wrote:

As a side note, my former Lama in Maui (deceased now) warned me 12 years ago to stay away from romantic relationships.  The impermanent nature and intense attachment invariably lead to eventual intense suffering.  Besides that, the continuous drama distracts from the more important focus on researching the nature of self.  This, along with his many other wise recommendations, I obviously have not followed.

I've attempted that philosophy multiple times, and I fail miserably every time If you ever find a trick to it, let me know (short of castration).

Eight years ago I took a vow of celibacy for 18 months to see who was in control, me or my libido.  Going without sex is actually easier than one might think if the decision is made with a definite purpose.  It is amazing how much free time magically appears when not trying to impress the opposite sex.  That being said...  The sexual energy one feels when beginning a new relationship is incredibly wonderful.  I can't imagine only feeling that once in my life.  If I am in love with someone, I want her to feel that as many times as possible as well.  It is not just about the physical act.  Time stands still with each new love.

chorismos wrote:

I don’t like generalisations but statistical/empirical patterns can be difficult to ignore; the observations below (aimed at anyone contemplating a longer-term, committed relationship to a Japanese Woman) are based on what I’ve read/heard and in some cases observed (in Tokyo) and would apply equally to mixed (Caucasian/ Japanese) and Japanese-only relationships:

i. Japanese Women (JW) have a lower sexual drive than women from other cultures (especially Caucasian) and will usually expect the man to initiate the act; over time Japanese partners will commonly cease having sex altogether

ii. JW expect men to know implicitly when their partners want sex and regard it as affrontery if their partner in any way initiates sex without this tacit 'understanding'; this is also used as a defence mechanism (excuse) over time to stop advances

iii. JW will avoid talking about emotions or sexual matters in a relationship at all costs; if the subject is raised they will have flight or fight responses or 'seize up' (physically and verbally)

iv. JW prefer to ignore issues in a relationship or pretend they are not there, rather than discuss them - a 'grin and bear it' response; if discussed they will either resort to one of two responses (a) it is due to ‘character’ etc therefore ‘cannot be changed’ (b) it is their fault completely and they don't know how to change

v. JW will tend to use sex (and very skilfully) as a ploy to lure men into marriage after which there is no perceived strategic advantage; sex at that point becomes at best procreation only (ie not enjoyment)

vi. once procreation is not longer a valid motivation JW see no obligation towards their husbands to perform sexually

vii. JW have a strong tendency to view husbands as brotherly figures and family and can for this reason find the mere thought of sexual engagement abhorrent; it is common for this tendency to arise over time

viii. JW will see nothing unusual in a relationship or marriage that is 'loveless' or devoid of sex and the topic becomes an anathema to them

ix. JW will not express openly their love or discuss it and will avoid public affection at any cost (even simple gestures such as holding hands)

A couple of other practical points:

(a) Contemporary JW do not appear to ‘have’ the concept of ‘love’ other than what is borrowed from Western romance novels/films etc; their interest in it is sparked mainly by curiosity (this may have been different in prior history as much early Japanese literature seems to attest)

(b) JW are of two types, those who want to stay (in Japan) and those who want to go; of those who want to go many will want to return

(c) Foreigners lack any access rights to children in Japan following divorce there (btw there are many documented ‘child abduction’ cases where JW return to Japan from abroad with their children and vanish, but I don’t know whether this is exclusive to Japan)

(d) JW think in ways which can appear incomprehensible (presumably from a deep cultural and society-gendered basis) to ‘Western males’; I’ve heard this expressed more simply many times as ‘JW are mad’ but many Western men I've met say the same of women in general

(e) It is usually highly recommended to engage a good lawyer to draft a pre-nuptial agreement that is signed by both parties (this may not be legally binding but will have persuasive value in court should the need arise)

(f) I’ve not seen any documentary evidence that divorce rates between mixed race marriages in Japan are any higher than the standard divorce rate

(g) Many Japanese women are extremely bitter about perceived/actual injustices and sexual discrimination in Japanese society but repress this through society constraints or sublimate it into their work patterns (overtime/stress/death); this (especially the work patterns, whatever their cause) can build tension in relationships.

Finally, in the words of the immortal Frank Zappa, ‘broken hearts are for arseholes’; if you’re looking for happiness in love or marriage, best of luck and pick up a copy of Proust’s ‘The Captive’ from 'In Search of Lost Time'.

I found this false, and debatable, but mostly stereotypical, but my girlfriend was studying in the states for 3 years before I met her, but we kiss and hug in public all the time here, anyways, if I go to Japan with her I wouldn't expect it, I mean it's just a cultural folkway in Japan, we have man folkways here as well. Also, my woman tends to be outspoken and wishing to discuss topics, and the first time we got together was initiated by her and not under the influence of alcohol. Who, knows though, I do see some quirks in her that I haven't seen in western women whom I've been with.

Last edited by Yonosa (2009 July 15, 4:30 pm)

Background: 20 Year old englishman, spent a totalk of 5 weeks in japan so far in my life, and have had 2 japanese girlfriends whilst in the UK, and whilst in japan have lain with my fair share of lovely ladies! and I`m Currently with a polish woman who i`ve been with for a while (therefore, yes i have the slang "yellow fever" (love of asian women) but i also love all other casts and creeds of women!

Not that it`ll make much of an impact but from my experience of japanese women, i`ll address what i think of the very interesting post (thats doesn`t mean i support some of the extreme points made...) from Chorismos.

chorismos wrote:

i. Japanese Women (JW) have a lower sexual drive than women from other cultures (especially Caucasian) and will usually expect the man to initiate the act; over time Japanese partners will commonly cease having sex altogether

Yes and no, This is a sort of "how many words are in a book" question, 十人十色!
One of my ex-girlfriends refused to have sex with me on a frequent basis, but.. she still DID have some sex drive atleast.

However, another woman i`ve been with was the horniest woman i`ve ever met, sexdrive? sky was the limit. she was the first girl to openly talk dirty to me (in japanese! that was special!) without months of confidence and trust building.
And no she wasn`t a slag, about 5 ish men at 25years old.. can`t knock that!

chorismos wrote:

ii. JW expect men to know implicitly when their partners want sex and regard it as affrontery if their partner in any way initiates sex without this tacit 'understanding'; this is also used as a defence mechanism (excuse) over time to stop advances

Erm, yeh some do, but at the same time, some of the gals have openly just grabbed my crotch but ofcourse. only behind closed doors.

chorismos wrote:

iii. JW will avoid talking about emotions or sexual matters in a relationship at all costs; if the subject is raised they will have flight or fight responses or 'seize up' (physically and verbally)

erm, not really. they will not let you know that you matter to them, so no "i miss you" or any talk of the nice things like example "i love the way you used to tickly my belly gently when you say ohayou!"

But i have in the past got emotions like "あなたが　大好きです!" fired at me at random/in adoring e-mails and letters.

I think the basis is, japanese women will only tell you nice things and free up their emotions when they feel comfortable that it`s private/meaningful circumstances.

chorismos wrote:

iv. JW prefer to ignore issues in a relationship or pretend they are not there, rather than discuss them - a 'grin and bear it' response; if discussed they will either resort to one of two responses (a) it is due to ‘character’ etc therefore ‘cannot be changed’ (b) it is their fault completely and they don't know how to change

Erm, Yeh.. i`m afraid i have to agree to this one, i still ahven`t found an exception to the rule.. but i have plenty of time to try and find said exception to the rule!

chorismos wrote:

v. JW will tend to use sex (and very skilfully) as a ploy to lure men into marriage after which there is no perceived strategic advantage; sex at that point becomes at best procreation only (ie not enjoyment)

No, japanese women will not use sex skillfully to lure men into marriage.

they will use it to ploy men into babies.. which from what i gather.. you have about 2 weeks of "fun sex" in an entire marriage.. called honeymoon.

after that, they`re prime objective in life is to make babies.

once your married.. you have about 1 month until your wife wants to breed.

I had an ex girlfriend cry at me once, because i said that i don`t want a child until i was atleast what... 28?!.. i was 17 at the time, she was 19 and she wanted to get married and have kids the following year (needless to say, we broke up)... my child would now be one and a half if i`d stuck with that!

chorismos wrote:

ix. JW will not express openly their love or discuss it and will avoid public affection at any cost (even simple gestures such as holding hands)

Erm, Public effection i agree with, never ever try and kiss a woman in public in japan, your fixin` for a slap.. or worse..

but, as i said above, they will tell you they adore you when they`re comfortable!


Hopes this helps anyone, i just enjoyed writing it really! And no, i don`t support all of the points etc. i`m not racist.. and anything else you want to throw at me for qutoing on this post.

Loren

Last edited by LorenPaul (2009 July 15, 4:44 pm)

LorenPaul wrote:

Background: 20 Year old englishman, spent a totalk of 5 weeks in japan so far in my life, and have had 2 japanese girlfriends whilst in the UK, and whilst in japan have lain with my fair share of lovely ladies!

Talk about attention wh* hey-people-look-at-me-and-how-many-chicks-I've-been-with! Whatever, nobody's interested in that unneeded excessive info thank you very much.

LorenPaul wrote:

Not that it`ll make much of an impact but from my experience of japanese women,

One of my ex-girlfriends refused to have sex with me on a frequent basis

However, another woman i`ve been with was the horniest woman i`ve ever met, sexdrive? sky was the limit.

some of the gals have openly just grabbed my crotch but ofcourse.

But i have in the past got emotions like "あなたが　大好きです!" fired at me at random/in adoring e-mails and letters.

Hopes this helps anyone, i just enjoyed writing it really!
Loren

And you can stop your screaming self-advertising right there and there, gawd, so fake(ok put some sugar coating on it here)

Last edited by Musashi (2009 July 15, 4:56 pm)

In the interest of not having this thread slapped with some kind of sanction, could we please just chill a little?

Everyone has their own perspectives and experiences, please endeavor to tolerate all manner of expressing these thoughts, even if they are incorrect based on one's own experience or knowledge.

But please draw the line at personal insults of any kind. We are all mature enough to appreciate this reasonable forum rule.

お願いします

Last edited by TheTrueBlue (2009 July 15, 4:50 pm)

LorenPaul wrote:

Musashi wrote:

LorenPaul wrote:

Background: 20 Year old englishman, spent a totalk of 5 weeks in japan so far in my life, and have had 2 japanese girlfriends whilst in the UK, and whilst in japan have lain with my fair share of lovely ladies!

Talk about attention wh* hey-people-look-at-me-and-how-many-chicks-I've-been-with! Whatever, nobody's interested in that unneeded excessive info thank you very much.

Lol and talk about "Wh* hey-people-look-at-me-I`m-a-little-mad-at-the-world-with-a-chip-on-my-shoulder-and-anger-management-issues

Wow.. never thought i`d find such an ignorant and rude person on this forum.

I thought (obviously not what it seems) i was adding my point of view on this topic (which happens to be public and open to adding your points of view)

one little question musashi?

Whats your problem?

Loren

Yea hi, welcome to the forum btw!
I've edited my post as you can see,
quite the self promoter aren't we?
ok maybe the 'wh*' part was a bit too much, yea ur right, in the end we're all here to study kanji,we sometimes get carried away on different subjects, don't take everything personal on this forum btw

Last edited by Musashi (2009 July 15, 4:55 pm)

Musashi wrote:

LorenPaul wrote:

Musashi wrote:

Talk about attention wh* hey-people-look-at-me-and-how-many-chicks-I've-been-with! Whatever, nobody's interested in that unneeded excessive info thank you very much.

Lol and talk about "Wh* hey-people-look-at-me-I`m-a-little-mad-at-the-world-with-a-chip-on-my-shoulder-and-anger-management-issues

Wow.. never thought i`d find such an ignorant and rude person on this forum.

I thought (obviously not what it seems) i was adding my point of view on this topic (which happens to be public and open to adding your points of view)

one little question musashi?

Whats your problem?

Loren

Yea hi, welcome to the forum btw!
I've edited my post as you can see,
quite the self promoter aren't we?
ok maybe the 'wh*' part was a bit too much, yea ur right, in the end we're all here to study kanji,we sometimes get carried away on different subjects, don't take everything personal on this forum btw

ok ok

I`ll end the quote after quote after quote here now.

I won`t take it personally.

but when you call me an attention whore... and are obviously implying to MY posts, no one elses.. i WILL take it personalyl because thats what it is.

See you around. I`ll stick to the SRS thanks.

LorenPaul wrote:

Musashi wrote:

LorenPaul wrote:

Lol and talk about "Wh* hey-people-look-at-me-I`m-a-little-mad-at-the-world-with-a-chip-on-my-shoulder-and-anger-management-issues

Wow.. never thought i`d find such an ignorant and rude person on this forum.

I thought (obviously not what it seems) i was adding my point of view on this topic (which happens to be public and open to adding your points of view)

one little question musashi?

Whats your problem?

Loren

Yea hi, welcome to the forum btw!
I've edited my post as you can see,
quite the self promoter aren't we?
ok maybe the 'wh*' part was a bit too much, yea ur right, in the end we're all here to study kanji,we sometimes get carried away on different subjects, don't take everything personal on this forum btw

ok ok

I`ll end the quote after quote after quote here now.

I won`t take it personally.

but when you call me an attention whore... and are obviously implying to MY posts, no one elses.. i WILL take it personalyl because thats what it is.

See you around. I`ll stick to the SRS thanks.

Gosh, so many quotes in quotes, ok ok, I already said attention wh* was a bit too much, I take it back. Let's just focus on kanji learning. Sorry for the negative experience for the new member.
Welcome welcome!
*hands over matcha-ice-cream

お米が大好き。

実は日本には時々とか何も書きことをだしてできませんでしたがこれを言って