TheTrueBlue wrote:

So I have a valid case for going to Japan with this goal in mind? Nobody (yet) thinks I should be institutionalized, right?

I don't think you're insane, or even strange - perhaps just in the minority (a bit like myself). It's just that it sounds a bit ... naive.
It sounds like you have this "fantasy" that a Japanese girl will be perfect for you. Which may be the case, but you have to remember that Japanese girls are real people, they will have flaws just like western girls, and you risk being very disappointed when you find your "fantasy girl" isn't quite the fantasy you imagined.

Real relationships are hard. On top of that, you will have cultural differences and a language barrier.

That doesn't mean it's impossible. Good luck to you.

bodhisamaya wrote:

There are no examples of monogamy in the animal world.  It would hinder evolution.  Thinking humans are somehow different is not realistic.

I think it's great that you have found the way you want to live. I also agree that humans are have not evolved to be monogamous. When you think about it it makes sense as well.

Humans used to live in small tribes and the family unit didn't really exist. Men would try and have sex with the alluring women and the women would try to have sex with the most attractive and capable men. Any baby born would be looked after by the tribe and raised by all the adults. In such a society polygamy works.

However, in the modern world it would be almost impossible. Different families would be in different houses, one father to both families could split his time between them, but I don't think any women would agree to that.

So basically, until we start living in more of a tribe like environment for those that want kids they don't have much choice other than monogamy.

bodhisamaya wrote:

There are no examples of monogamy in the animal world.  It would hinder evolution.  Thinking humans are somehow different is not realistic.

I don't want to sound confrontational, but this is a load bullocks that has been floating around for years in "new age" communities. It's a wrong statement, but living your life as you see fit is the right way to do things. Enjoy your life as you want just don't use this silly argument anymore to justify it. Saying, "I enjoy my life" is a good enough argument for me.

Here's only a couple reasons why the argument is wrong (I could come up with more, but I was beating a dead horse):

1. Clearly monogamy was evolved or it would not be here. Even if it is entirely social, this is an example of memetic evolution.

2. Another example of monogamous animals (beyond humans) is the Osprey - a bird - that have a life partnership.

3. As thermal pointed out, monogamy works for today's society. In short, we evolved to need monogamy (not 100%) to ensure survival of the family line within our artificial world. While I am not a biologist (a different bread of scientist), I have read extensively on evolution and there are a few very understandable hypotheses regarding this. From my readings, the brain size increase that began after humans became tribal required shorter time in the womb. Babies were more vulnerable when born because of this. This vulnerability led to family structures where a woman would choose a mate that could protect her and the child because of a now slower development period after birth.  This could easily develop into a life partnership since primates of many species are recorded using sex for social reasons beyond simple reproduction.

4. Polygamy can also be detrimental to gene frequencies in a population, thus improving the chances of inbreeding. This is genetically unfavorable.

*edit
just so ya know, you were indeed talking about the Osprey in your past post. HOWEVER, the study described in your documentary showed a "rare" occurrence of polyandry (females with multiple male mates) under conditions where every nest was having a mean of less than one baby bird. In essence, the species is dying and are fighting to survive. If this is the case, you might expect a species to adopt a new sexual habit to survive.

*edit again
5. I am sure you actually knew that "no examples exist in the animal world" is too strict a statement, in which case I am really just blowing steam since I am angry at the work load ahead of me

Last edited by dat5h (2009 July 15, 3:53 am)

I went to college tree times and flunked out, and now I think what's the point of college anyway? There are no animals that go on to higher education the animal world.

Sorry, I couldn't resist, and j/k

Last edited by vosmiura (2009 July 15, 4:17 am)

Love hotels are awesome- I have only been to a couple "normal" ones- big TV, huge bathroom, free movies, karaoke, etc. Very cool. My girlfriend had never been until I drug her to one on my birthday last year- she was so nervous but really enjoyed the experience. It is a little unnerving going in, but not too bad I'd love to own a love hotel! It isn't recession proof, but in Japan, if you want to have sex, sometimes it's the only option in a crowded house.

Additionally, I thought penguins also mated for life?

captal wrote:

Random-hookups in Tokyo are like shooting fish in a barrel if you want them. Though I didn't do a very good job when I stayed for two months as I was sticking to nice girls that I met. My favorite quote was about Muse (the club in Roppongi)- "You can't lose at Muse." Haha.

LOL i remember that quote!!

Pardon my generalizations..but i have lived in tokyo for about 2 years and just recently moved to the country side of japan, so with that said.....

Man I cant tell you how easy it is in Roppongi! This is where you find most of the girls that
1)only want foreigners or
2)girls that are nearing their 30's looking for marriage
3)in my opinion the girls in japan are of the lowest quality(looks wise) in roppongi
foreigners(especially the visitors or the newly arrived) are much more likely to forgive this than japanese men(face is ALL to the japanese man)

I find sometimes you meet girls in roppongi that would NEVER go to roppongi but have friends that like to go and so tag along on a 二次回 or something. Every time i meet a girl in this category...she's a step above the crowd in the club.

so yeah for sex...just come to japan with some confidence(and persistence) and you'll be fine. Love...hmm, well i still havent really figured that out.  But one thing i (have grown to) hate is gaijin hunters and i think they are everywhere in Tokyo. Actually they are great if your japanese is next to none, but when you get conversational you wont like them so much, everyone i talk to feels the same(maybe its just my friends)..so on that front i think the country side is a big change.  However..you get EVEN more attention in the country side...and also the better your japanese is the more ability you have of expressing your personality.  In roppongi i have actually lost women due to that fact that she realized i can say shit past ありがとうございます。。。

as a final remark...you experience in japan (women) varies greatly with your 1)looks 2)confidence level 3)japanese ability

Last edited by saizen (2009 July 15, 5:42 am)

I think Japanese girls are more willing to date foreigners who don't speak Japanese than there are say, natives of your own country who would be willing to date someone who didn't speak the local tongue. Since English is taught as a foreign language here, there are incentives here that don't exist in other countries. The culture counts English as cool and foreign faces are typically considered attractive. With that said, unless you're in the city, or don't mind settling for a girl you might not otherwise date, knowing Japanese and/or actively studying it is a plus. I lived in Nagoya for a year on a college campus and I didn't have any luck with girls back then, but then again, I tried to entertain the idea of watching and waiting, and letting relationships develop naturally. It's really not effective in the long run if you're coming to Japan with an interest in finding a partner of some sort.

As has been discussed in various threads, friendship in Japan, due to the responsibilities associated with it, is a lot of work. Girls and guys alike may be hesitant to approach you looking for friendship, so it's difficult to just sit back and wait for a nice friendship to develop into a relationship. I met my girlfriend at a very casual dinner and we ended up talking a little there, playing Frisbee later (again, as a larger group), and eventually hanging out together on our own.  My advice here is get the (cell phone) email address of anyone who remotely interests you as soon as possible, the first time you meet them if you can swing it. You don't need to push your agenda (whatever it may be) right away, but regular contact, one on one, whether it be face to face or via email, is of paramount importance. Don't expect to go to places together in groups and end up getting any time alone to talk to each other.

The other major obstacle to dating is time. People in Japan are busy and its never the kind of busy that they can skimp out on and find time for you. My girlfriend lives in a dorm at a nursing school and I consider myself quite fortunate if I see her even twice a week. She spends more time at school than I do at work, and that's not even counting the reports and things she has to do as homework. If you ask someone out and they tell you they're busy, they're more likely telling you the truth than brushing you off.

But again, the most important thing you can do is pursue and act. If you come to Japan and sit in the shadows, waiting for shit to happen, you're going to end up going home empty-handed. In fact, I'll go as far as to say that I think this is true in almost any country, really. Figure out the best way to meet people and then make contact. Go to social events. Talk to girls in coffee shops. I faced quite a number of trials myself. Living in the 2nd least populated prefecture in Japan will do that for you. There are no bars, no clubs, and definitely no places to meet girls here, so I had to scrape and hoard and have eyes everywhere just to find girls in my age range. Asked a girl for her number at a library a few days after I first arrived and got totally rejected. Next girl I found, a year later, ended up being a high school girl who, while off-limits to me anyway, left the prefecture for college a few months later. Then I met a girl I liked at a restaurant who I got along with and found out two days later she was leaving for the USA to go back to college! My current girlfriend was a fluke, really and there was a month or two (after we met but before we started dating) where we didn't talk at all because her cell phone broke and we both thought the other had cooled off. It really comes down to confidence and persistence.

And, of course, once you're in the relationship, honesty seems to work well.

Last edited by FutureBlues (2009 July 15, 7:08 am)

IceCream wrote:

These kind of arguments about nature etc, really just make people feel less guilty about cheating.

I think there has to be a distinction between looking at biology--especially evolutionary theory--to predict how humans will have a tendency to act, and looking at nature in order to see how is 'okay' or 'good' to act.

For example, most people in America will probably have heard people argue over whether or not some animals can be homosexual, or whether they have homosexual sex (incidentally, quite objectively, homosexual behavior does occur in other social species).  This is supposed to lend credence to whether or not it is morally 'okay' to be gay.  Many people who believe it is not okay to be gay have argued that it is unnatural, and the response was that other animals do it to.

But this is all silly, the whole thing.  It doesn't really matter if other animals are homosexual or not.  First of all, to say that it's 'unnatural' if only humans do it is silly because it's acting as if humans are not animals.  But, far more importantly, we shouldn't be basing how we act on this anyway.  There are much better reasons to decide whether it is 'okay.'  In this case, I think it should be obvious that as it is not harmful in any way, shape, or form, it should be obvious that it's 'okay.'

Likewise, other animals rape each other, and some do it quite often.  Of course, this is called 'coercive sex' (largely because nobody wants to imply that rape can have biological causes).  You can read a bit about it on wikipedia:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_sex … ercive_sex

Should we judge whether or not to rape based on whether there is a biological tendency to do so?  Seems like a no.

Incidentally, I'm actually not disagreeing with Bodhisamaya, as I don't think that he was saying that we can judge ethics based on just biological tendencies.  But, I felt I should point it out.  Deciding to what extent cheating is okay is rather complicated, largely because it's looked down on so strongly and because of the emotional pain it can cause.

This is hastily written, my bad.

Last edited by Tzadeck (2009 July 15, 8:17 am)

I'm not sure how anyone could ever think that it's okay and biologically expected to cheat on someone.

Being cheated on by someone whom you love unconditionally and have spent many years in a relationship with is one of the most awful emotional experiences. I can't imagine how anyone could justify wounding someone like that.

I don’t like generalisations but statistical/empirical patterns can be difficult to ignore; the observations below (aimed at anyone contemplating a longer-term, committed relationship to a Japanese Woman) are based on what I’ve read/heard and in some cases observed (in Tokyo) and would apply equally to mixed (Caucasian/ Japanese) and Japanese-only relationships:

i. Japanese Women (JW) have a lower sexual drive than women from other cultures (especially Caucasian) and will usually expect the man to initiate the act; over time Japanese partners will commonly cease having sex altogether

ii. JW expect men to know implicitly when their partners want sex and regard it as affrontery if their partner in any way initiates sex without this tacit 'understanding'; this is also used as a defence mechanism (excuse) over time to stop advances

iii. JW will avoid talking about emotions or sexual matters in a relationship at all costs; if the subject is raised they will have flight or fight responses or 'seize up' (physically and verbally)

iv. JW prefer to ignore issues in a relationship or pretend they are not there, rather than discuss them - a 'grin and bear it' response; if discussed they will either resort to one of two responses (a) it is due to ‘character’ etc therefore ‘cannot be changed’ (b) it is their fault completely and they don't know how to change

v. JW will tend to use sex (and very skilfully) as a ploy to lure men into marriage after which there is no perceived strategic advantage; sex at that point becomes at best procreation only (ie not enjoyment)

vi. once procreation is not longer a valid motivation JW see no obligation towards their husbands to perform sexually

vii. JW have a strong tendency to view husbands as brotherly figures and family and can for this reason find the mere thought of sexual engagement abhorrent; it is common for this tendency to arise over time

viii. JW will see nothing unusual in a relationship or marriage that is 'loveless' or devoid of sex and the topic becomes an anathema to them

ix. JW will not express openly their love or discuss it and will avoid public affection at any cost (even simple gestures such as holding hands)

A couple of other practical points:

(a) Contemporary JW do not appear to ‘have’ the concept of ‘love’ other than what is borrowed from Western romance novels/films etc; their interest in it is sparked mainly by curiosity (this may have been different in prior history as much early Japanese literature seems to attest)

(b) JW are of two types, those who want to stay (in Japan) and those who want to go; of those who want to go many will want to return

(c) Foreigners lack any access rights to children in Japan following divorce there (btw there are many documented ‘child abduction’ cases where JW return to Japan from abroad with their children and vanish, but I don’t know whether this is exclusive to Japan)

(d) JW think in ways which can appear incomprehensible (presumably from a deep cultural and society-gendered basis) to ‘Western males’; I’ve heard this expressed more simply many times as ‘JW are mad’ but many Western men I've met say the same of women in general

(e) It is usually highly recommended to engage a good lawyer to draft a pre-nuptial agreement that is signed by both parties (this may not be legally binding but will have persuasive value in court should the need arise)

(f) I’ve not seen any documentary evidence that divorce rates between mixed race marriages in Japan are any higher than the standard divorce rate

(g) Many Japanese women are extremely bitter about perceived/actual injustices and sexual discrimination in Japanese society but repress this through society constraints or sublimate it into their work patterns (overtime/stress/death); this (especially the work patterns, whatever their cause) can build tension in relationships.

Finally, in the words of the immortal Frank Zappa, ‘broken hearts are for arseholes’; if you’re looking for happiness in love or marriage, best of luck and pick up a copy of Proust’s ‘The Captive’ from 'In Search of Lost Time'.

chorismos wrote:

I don’t like generalisations but statistical/empirical patterns can be difficult to ignore; the observations below (aimed at anyone contemplating a longer-term, committed relationship to a Japanese Woman) are based on what I’ve read/heard and in some cases observed (in Tokyo) and would apply equally to mixed (Caucasian/ Japanese) and Japanese-only relationships:

Wow...empirical patterns? I find this entire post to be highly offensive. I would never go to a Japanese messageboard and start saying that all American guys I met were fat, acne-ridden idiots with complete gauche, and I would expect you not to make such wide generalizations either. Especially ones that are so offensive. It's things like that that spread these stereotypes.

i. Japanese Women (JW) have a lower sexual drive than women from other cultures (especially Caucasian) and will usually expect the man to initiate the act; over time Japanese partners will commonly cease having sex altogether

Culture plays an immense role in someone's acceptance of sexuality. Most of these girls with low sexual drive are ones who have never been in serious relationships, are uncomfortable with their own bodies, and are told by society that they have to act a certain way in regards to sexuality. It's the same way in most cultures. People are people. However, I can honestly tell you that there is very little difference in sexual drive between Japanese and and western women. In general Japanese women conceal their own sexuality due to culture (though this has changed tremendously in the past decades, and in the major cities with lots of western influence, the teenagers are pretty much identical in sexuality to American teens) but that does not mean their sexuality isn't there. Japanese girls are just as horny as American ones, regardless of what nonsensical statistics tell you.

ii. JW expect men to know implicitly when their partners want sex and regard it as affrontery if their partner in any way initiates sex without this tacit 'understanding'; this is also used as a defence mechanism (excuse) over time to stop advances

This tends to only occur if the girl is dating the person for other motivations than love, passion, and attraction. If there's a strong attraction, there will be lust. I'd say that maybe Japanese girls are a little less likely to initiate sex than western girls, but they want it just as badly.

iii. JW will avoid talking about emotions or sexual matters in a relationship at all costs; if the subject is raised they will have flight or fight responses or 'seize up' (physically and verbally)

Uh, don't date stupid girls? This isn't a cultural issue. Many, many couples talk through their problems and their emotions. Immaturity exists in every society, I don't think it's fair at all to say that it's dominant in Japan.

v. JW will tend to use sex (and very skilfully) as a ploy to lure men into marriage after which there is no perceived strategic advantage; sex at that point becomes at best procreation only (ie not enjoyment)

And how does this not apply to every culture? Honestly, if any guy marries someone because they 'lured him with sex', then the couple deserves to have a shitty relationship.

vi. once procreation is not longer a valid motivation JW see no obligation towards their husbands to perform sexually

Clearly my parents have never heard of this fact of life, since they still go at it like bunnies nearly everyday. I'll have to enlighten them.

ix. JW will not express openly their love or discuss it and will avoid public affection at any cost (even simple gestures such as holding hands)

Really? So, all the teenage couples I constantly would see holding hands and making out in public parks and at school are, what, contradictions of the universe?

(a) Contemporary JW do not appear to ‘have’ the concept of ‘love’ other than what is borrowed from Western romance novels/films etc; their interest in it is sparked mainly by curiosity (this may have been different in prior history as much early Japanese literature seems to attest)

This is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read. I don't think it even deserves a response.

I don't see what sex and love have to do with each other, that study you quote seems to use sexual activity and love as synonymous terms. I personally don't see that as the case. And I don't see anything wrong with sex being seen as a procreation activity only either.


These to me seem all to be personality traits not just limited to Japanese people.

That being said, My Japanese teacher wrote her dissertation specifically on Japanese relationships and intimacy/touch in relationships.　I'm not sure if i'll be allowed to upload it here, I'll check. But she argues that this apparently nonexistence of love in relationships that a foreigner sees is false. There is one but it doesn't have to be expressed through touch, sex, eye contact.　Her work was taken pretty well too as im assuming it woul dhave torn through half of those stereotypes.