MeisterLlama
Member
From: Houston
Registered: 2008-05-20
Posts: 20
How do you guys review grammar? I learn tons of grammar forms in class, but unlike vocab, where I can make english->japanese flashcards, making flashcards for grammar seems a bit difficult. I'm considering two options:
1. question: Ask myself to make a sentence using a grammar structure, i.e. "Make a sentence with まるで .... ように/みたい/etc."
answer: Give examples of the grammar structure, i.e. あのひとはまるでドイツ人のようにドイツ語を話す。 And also explain the meaning of the grammar and how to use it, i.e. Means "As if"
2. question: あのひとはまるでドイツ人のようにドイツ語を話す
answer: That person speaks German as if he were a German person.
1. seems very awkward, but 2. seems a bit too easy, i.e. I'll be able to easily from context figure out the meaning, but when it comes time to apply the grammar I'll probably forget how to use it. How do you guys drill grammar forms?
MeisterLlama
Member
From: Houston
Registered: 2008-05-20
Posts: 20
When I review recognition sentences, though, it doesn't actually seem like I'm learning. For example, I can easily recognize the meaning of たたむ in 帆をたため！ because 1. I've seen that sentence many times in my SRS and I remember the original context in which I read that sentence and 2. It's next to 帆, and you can only really do a couple of actions to the sail.
However, if I were conversing with someone and suddenly had to say "Fold the sail", I wouldn't be able to remember what the verb for fold is. Every word that I've drilled with production, though, I remember. Recognition just seems way too easy.
Tobberoth
Member
From: Sweden
Registered: 2008-08-25
Posts: 3364
MeisterLlama wrote:
When I review recognition sentences, though, it doesn't actually seem like I'm learning. For example, I can easily recognize the meaning of たたむ in 帆をたため！ because 1. I've seen that sentence many times in my SRS and I remember the original context in which I read that sentence and 2. It's next to 帆, and you can only really do a couple of actions to the sail.
However, if I were conversing with someone and suddenly had to say "Fold the sail", I wouldn't be able to remember what the verb for fold is. Every word that I've drilled with production, though, I remember. Recognition just seems way too easy.
The reason you can't think of the verb "fold" when you're conversing isn't because recognition is too easy. It's because of lack of exposure and internalization.
Even if you don't have 今 in your SRS or anything, you will be able to use it fine in a conversation. That one didn't need production, so why would any other word? The difference being that with just a tiny bit of exposure, 今 becomes second nature since it's used so often. How often would you really need to say "fold the sails" in a conversation though? Almost never. And THAT'S why you can't do it, because you never see or hear it used, only in your SRS. And fact is, that will be enough. If you're ever in a conversation where you need to use the phrase, the context will be there and you will remember it. That's why we use sentences in an SRS: There's always context. Learning a word without a context is needlessly hard, there's no situation (outside of a school test) where you will need to remember words outside of any context.
For me, I find that grammar is easily learned through SRS recognition. I didn't feel as if I was 'learning' them at first, just remembering what the sentence means, but as you add more sentences, and grammar points are reused, you get a much better feel for them. Plus, your SRS sentences shouldn't be the ONLY sentences you read. When you read stories and articles, you will come across grammar again and again, and you won't have these new sentences already in your memory - just the grammar.
However, I do have a small production deck on the side. I often stumble on conjugations. There are such a wide variety of conjugations, that I feel that I need a little extra help. I go to this deck, only every now and then to review some verbs conjugations.
rich_f
Member
From: north carolina
Registered: 2007-07-12
Posts: 1708
Actually, there are ways to review grammar. One is called cloze deletion, and it's pretty straightforward. Just remove the chunks from the sentences you want to study, and make yourself fill in the blanks yourself.
I'm just grabbing a book off of a random shelf, but if you're studying one of the various uses of the particle に:
このケーキを三つに分けて下さい。
Please divide the cake into 3 parts.
Using cloze, you wind up with:
Q: このケーキを三つ__分けて下さい。(put whatever prompt you want here.)
A: このケーキを三つに分けて下さい。
That gives your brain something to do, if you don't like passive work.
Or, you can just dump a bunch of simple example sentences in that demonstrate the grammar point you want to learn, and highlight the bits you want to emphasize. I find it useful for remembering certain constructions that are always a pain to remember.
I find that the more that I see something, the more likely I am to remember it well enough to actually use it. Yeah, some people think that's SRS heresy, but the thing is, exposing yourself to an obscure (to you) grammatical construction JUST ONCE every few days and expecting it to somehow magically show up in your conversation is ludicrous.
I need to use a certain amount of overwhelming force in my deck for a while, then remove the extra sentences as the grammar becomes solidified in my knowledge of the language.
The job of the SRS, IMO, is to shove things you don't know under your nose until you know them. That's all. Nothing special. So if you don't know how to use に, shove a lot of examples of how に is used under your nose until you figure it out, then you can safely dump them from your deck.
What I did for basic grammar was scan in the Genki I & II answer key, and use a lot of the answers to the exercises as example sentences. Yes, they're dumbed down, but they're short, basic, and briefly illustrate basic grammar points until you get them, then they can be thrown away.
Last edited by rich_f (2009 June 10, 10:33 am)
Tobberoth
Member
From: Sweden
Registered: 2008-08-25
Posts: 3364
rich_f wrote:
I find that the more that I see something, the more likely I am to remember it well enough to actually use it. Yeah, some people think that's SRS heresy, but the thing is, exposing yourself to an obscure (to you) grammatical construction JUST ONCE every few days and expecting it to somehow magically show up in your conversation is ludicrous.
Well, I guess it's the same thing here. If you just run into something a few times a week/month, you're not ready to use it anyway/it isn't to be used. If you're a beginner, reading basic manga, you're not going to run into much JLPT2 grammar. Then again, why should you force-learn it when you're not ready to read JLPT2 material?
If you get 1-2 hours of Japanese exposure each day, you should run into most of the stuff you need to know for your level. There is certainly stuff you will want to know that you won't run into, even with high level exposure such as news and novels, but then again, that's the kind of stuff you aren't supposed to actively use yourself. If native Japanese people aren't using stuff, why should you, you know?
Last edited by Tobberoth (2009 June 10, 11:02 am)
thecite
Member
From: Adelaide
Registered: 2009-02-05
Posts: 781
I've been doing the traditional method of having the english rule of the grammar point on the question side of the card, then the rule and example sentences on the back. I'd been considering eliminating everything except having the example sentence as the question, and maybe just some furigana for kanji I don't know as the answer. This forum has answered that query: yes, I will just switch to example sentences only. The old way takes far too long to type out as well...
Last edited by thecite (2009 June 26, 8:12 am)
After finishing RTK1, then on-yomi, then KO2001 both books, I thought it's finally time for me to do grammar. I feel that it's neccessary.
I don't want to discuss if it's a good idea to specifically study grammar or not and I also don't want to open a new thread just for that.
I intend to go through "A dicitionary of basic Japanese grammar" and after that the "intermediate" one.
There are a lot of things I already know in the "basic" book, but it's good review and there are always some points you didn't know about yet.
After that I either move on to the "advance" book or switch over to JLPt2 or 1 grammar books.
I've been playing around with my grammar anki deck for a while now (although reading through a few grammar related threads here) and I'm still not sure what might be the best way to go about it.
Right now I have 3 fields in Anki:
Field 1: (Question) The Japanese sentence.
Field 2: The (German) translation of the sentence.
Field 3: Grammar explanation etc.
At first I had quite a bunch of sentences in field one at a time all showing the same grammar point, but I guess that's a bit too much.
Now I've reduced it to 1 sentence (sometimes 2).
At first I just read the sentence (the grammar point is color-marked) and tried to figure out why this is used, then I checked the grammar explanation and translation.
That was boring and I didn't feel like I was actually getting anything from it.
Now I've changed Filed 1 once again:
I have now gaps where the grammar point needs to be filled in. (mot of the time I have a hint in brackets, so I know what I need to fill in e.g. "while" if it's for "nagara" or "aida(ni)" etc.
In field 3 I give the whole Japanese sentence with the correct answer again plus neccessary explanations.
That's better than before but I'm still not sure if that will do.
I was also thinking about having just the English/German sentence as Q and then try to translate the whole thing using the grammar point, but that might be too much, especially with long sentences.
As for what I leave out in the Field 1 sentences with the style I use now is not only the grammar point itself, but sometimes also part of the verb that stands in front of the grammar point, because I often have problems remembering if it's 食べる、食べた、食べ、食べな.... etc., so I guess that's good practice as well.
Here a few expamples of my current deck:
I'm glad for any help, hints etc.
Thanks in advance 
Field 1:
雪子はご飯を食べ__ ________テレビを見ていた。
(während, 2 Möglichkeiten = while, 2 possibilities)
Field 2: (Translation)
Yukiko hat ferngesehen, während sie ihr Essen aß.
Yukiko hat hauptsächlich ferngesehen, hat aber auch gleichzeitig noch was gegessen. => Yukiko aß etwas zu Essen, während sie ferngesehen hat.
Field 3:
雪子はご飯を食べる間テレビを見ていた。
雪子はご飯を食べながらテレビを見ていた。
間 kann durch ながら ersetzt werden, wenn:
- Subjekt in beiden Teilsätzen das gleiche ist
- es sich um Actionverben handelt
Field 1:
夏休みの________ラストランでアルバイトをしました。
夏休みの________ガールフレンドを出来ました。
(während = while, during)
Field 2: (Translation)
Während den Sommerferien habe ich gejobbt.
Während den Sommerferien hab ich eine Freundin gefunden.
Field 3:
夏休みの間ラストランでアルバイトをしました。
夏休みの間にガールフレンドを出来ました。
間 ｖｓ 間に:
1. Findet zur gleichen Zeit statt / gleiche Länge / etwa gleicher Anfang und gleiches Ende
2. Das eine lief schon, als das andere eingetreten ist
For the last card I might get rid of the "no" after "summer vacation" as well, so that I have additional practice and know that I have to use "no" if it's noun + aida(ni).
What do you think?
