My Sensei use very often 誰, 何時, 沢山 or 余り.

In her 'time', as she said herself, it was part of high education to write much in Kanji. If she writes protocolls, nobody of the younger generation can read it. :-)

In the first list I forgot:
いい　　　良い　　　好い　　　善い　　　吉い　　　佳い
all mean 'good; excellent; fine; nice; pleasant; agreeable'

Why are there so many of them?

Last edited by Teskal (2009 June 10, 3:42 am)

Jarvik7 wrote:

@Teskal: get yourself a "tsukaiwake" dictionary if you are interested in the subject.

Something like that?
http://www.amazon.co.jp/%E6%97%A5%E6%9C … amp;sr=8-1

The next university is to far away. :-(

But I saw your entry about this dict's in the ある　在る　有る thread, I will look if I will get the book.

Last edited by Teskal (2009 June 10, 4:16 am)

This is a very useful thread. I'll probably go back through my vocabulary deck and add in the kanji forms for words that have these as entries. It's not always about using rare forms just because you can (I'm looking at you Khatzumoto), but recognizing rare forms when they are used.

Thanks Teskal and Aijin.

WowXD
Great explanation Aijin
Thank you

Aijin wrote:

おはよう　　　御早う

おやすみなさい　　　御休みなさい

御 can be used for the regular お, but be careful when you use it. In some words it completely changes the meaning. 御茶 is tea served to kings, for example, not simple お茶.

Thanks Aijin.

I didn't know that using 御 instead of お could change the meaning of the word.

I know that it can have the reading
お (mostly Japanese Word)、
ゴ (chinese Words)
み (only for the Tenno).

I read just know that there are more readings: ギョ and おん。

I can find nothing to corroborate 御茶 vs お茶 being different in my dictionaries. In fact none of them even have any entry for お茶, instead listing it under 御茶 or △御茶.

例：

大辞林 wrote:

お-ちゃ [0] 【御茶】
(1)茶を丁寧にいう語。「—をいれる」「—をたてる」
(2)茶道。「—を習う」
(3)仕事の途中でする小休止。茶菓などの飲食をする。「三時の—にしよう」
(4)紅茶·コーヒーなどの飲み物。また,それを飲むこと。「—に誘う」

However, for 酒 it can change:

ご-しゅ [0] 【御酒】
飲む人やくれた人を敬って,その酒を丁寧にいう語。お酒。みき。

vs no entry for お酒 (just 酒, which can have an honorific applied just like any other noun)

You could easily make an argument for 茶 vs お茶 having slightly different meanings though, since the version with the honorific has also taken idiomatic meanings 2,3,4 above. Whereas meaning #1 is the same for every honorific+noun combination.

Same thing for 門 (かど) vs 御門 (みかど). Both mean gate, but the second has also taken on the idiomatic meaning of 天皇 (by referring to the gates of his residence).

While Aijin is right (but used a bad example), it's more a case of creating ambiguity by kanjifying the honorific, so the reader doesn't know which way to read it.

御門 can be read as みかど (the emperor) or as ごもん (simply an honorific word for gate). Without ふりがな the reader might not know which. Same for 御酒 (おさけ-honors the sake／ごしゅ-honors the drinker of it／みき-sake for the gods).

Last edited by Jarvik7 (2009 June 21, 8:21 pm)

Jarvik7 wrote:

I can find nothing to corroborate 御茶 vs お茶 being different in my dictionaries. In fact none of them even have any entry for お茶, instead listing it under 御茶 or △御茶.

A problem with dictionaries is often they're confined to the time period they were created in. In more recent dictionaries the distinction isn't made, and it's the same for my newer dictionaries. That simply reflects the modern usage. 御茶 as being more specific to tea served to royalty is centuries old, and you'll find it in more elaborate old dictionaries, as well in literature from the old periods in scenes depicting tea being served to royal bloodlines.

Another thing important to note about 御 is that it's more polite than お. In literal definition it's simply the kanji form of the honorific, but since it is rarely used now adays, its use creates much more formality. 御母さん is more respectful than お母さん, just as お母さん is more respectful than plain 母. Now adays one mostly sees 御 in very formal documentation.

I guess you could compare it to how older forms/usages in English aren't included in basic English dictionaries, and only old versions/specialized dictionaries will include those entries. It'd almost be like looking up words from Chaucer in the new Oxford dictionary; o course they won't be there but that doesn't mean they weren't in use/aren't words (bad example, since 御茶 isn't Middle Japanese, but you get the idea)

Last edited by Aijin (2009 June 22, 11:17 am)

With all this talk of respect with the written form which is indistinguishable if spoken, I'm reminded of an issue of Spiderman:

Spiderman: "Man, they let anyone into the airport"
Doctor Doom: "I am not just anyone, I am DOCTOR DOOM!!!"
Spiderman: "Wow, how do you do that?"
Doctor Doom: "Do what?"
Spiderman: "Talk in capital letters like that."
Doctor Doom: "Silence you whelp"

Part of the attraction of Japanese is you can be subtle with the writings. A pain sometimes, but still enjoyable.

迄（まで）、且つ（かつ）、但し（ただし）、然し（しかし）and 御目出度う (おめでとう）may potentially bear addition to this list.

On the other hand, I consider 余り、又、誰、未だ（which I habitually read as いまだ）、居る、the あるs (for the purposes of differentiation) and 成る as 成す to be quite ordinary, that is, not unreasonably pedantic.

Writing something like 有難う is just silly though.  Like spelling Mark with an 'e'.  Or color with a 'u'.  You know what I mean.  With apologies to the British.

Last edited by methanol (2009 July 17, 1:31 pm)

Aijin wrote:

bennyb wrote:

wow, really fascinating stuff. Thanks for sharing your knowledge with us, Mr. Aijin.

Ms.

Maybe if you changed you avatar to a huge bloody icecream cone people could tell the difference. Sheesh.

I'd say put a half-naked man body there, but then people would just think you're gay. lolz.

Aijin wrote:

when I see 誰 in hiragana in makes me want to kick the person in the balls for being lazy

有難う is just too strange. Some things just shouldn't be written in kanji

I wouldn't mind seeing a cute girl kick a former Prime Minister in the crotch:

http://www.kantei.go.jp/jp/koizumispeec … 4wsis.html

小泉純一郎 wrote:

...だれでも居ながらにして外国のお店で買い物ができるなど、世界中の人々の生活やビジネスが大きく変わりました。...ご清聴有難うございました。

By the way, I also write だれ in hiragana when I want to.

Last edited by magamo (2009 July 17, 4:53 pm)