の and こと aren't interchangeable. But that's not the main point. I don't know how I should put it, but it seems the book's rule says sentences like "Xするには反対です" and "Xする、には反対です" are ungrammatical regardless of context because Xする can't be a purpose, i.e., it can't be "for," "in order to," and so on. But if Xする is, say, a political thing, I guess some people would use the の-less version to avoid giving the sense of の. 賛成する is also a verb that could be used without の because of the same reason, I think.

I googled for "するには反対です" and it seems almost all examples are sort of political or things that speakers don't want others to take it as "Xするのには反対です (implying "but I can agree with him in general," "but I agree with the other thing," etc)", e.g., 国歌を歌うように個人に強制するには反対ですが…, and 参政権などの特権を付与するには反対です。

Maybe this kind of sentence is considered wrong. Maybe the rare examples are all typos. But I kind of think they didn't use の because the ideas/thoughts they had in their minds didn't have the sense of の when they formed the sentences. They didn't compare anything in the sentences. I mean, they just wanted to say "I disagree with X," "I'm against doing X," etc. Of course, I wouldn't say these are better than the のには versions. But if those sentences are what they wanted to mean and make sense, I don't know if they should be considered wrong just because they don't follow typical patterns. Hmm. I don't know what "ungrammatical" means any more...

Anyway, I don't think there are many situations that make speakers want to say 人の性格を見抜くには長けている. I guess のには version is almost always better for almost all verbs/phrases when it's not about "purpose," though I only checked several common words for the verb+には+verb/phrase structure and typical situations.

I don't know if this is just 反対する/賛成する tend to be used in a situation where people make grammatical errors more frequently or this is a special usage of the verbs. Maybe those examples on the internet are all grammatical errors made by native speakers. But if so, it's kind of strange that certain verbs are more vulnerable to grammatical errors...

Last edited by magamo (2010 January 31, 9:25 am)

Wow, you guys are amazing Thanks a lot for the explanation and examples!

Honestly, I think the proper usage of に has been one of the trickiest things for me to follow in SRS as there are just so many applications of it (plus usage of には), but this is a great help.

IceCream wrote:

人の性格を見抜くのには長けている。-> ok,
人の性格を見抜くことには長けている。-> ok.
人の性格を見抜くのには深い洞察力が必要だ
This のには isn't a nominaliser. It's for the purpose of doing x (doing x = reading peoples personalities), profound insight is necessary.

The の is still changing it into a noun, though.  The のには as a whole means "for the purpose of doing", but if you break that down into the three particles の, に, and は, the の's function is to nominalize the preceding clause.

in fact... isn't the easy way of testing whether something is a nominaliser or not is whether the verb before it can appear in another tense and make sense?

so, for example のに is not a nominaliser, because it can appear after any verb tense...

The nominalizer の can appear after any tense as well.  彼が失敗したのを見た。

You are right that　のに taken as a single unit is not a nominalizer.  But the root of that unit is nominalizer の + に (this is closer to the classical copula に than the modern particle, although it's all pretty much the same in origin.)

Last edited by yudantaiteki (2010 January 31, 9:48 pm)

いる is sometimes used with moving things that aren't living, particularly with things that will only be in a place for a short time -- it seems especially common with バス.

magamo wrote:

SammyB wrote:

あそこにパトカーがいる。

this is from core2000... why いる? It is because there are people in the patrol car... and therefore it's a living thing, sort of? o_O

You could say that's because there are people in the car, but the real reason is because it's "in operation." あそこにパトカーがいる implies that the speaker is thinking it's kind of an animated object. For example, it might mean if you do something illegal over there, you'd be caught. Maybe the speaker has been looking for a police officer and just found a patrol car pull over. He might be a criminal on the loose and trying to lose the police.

あそこにパトカーがある is ok, but it sounds like the patrol car is sort of inanimate or "dead." For example, if you were a criminal on the loose and said it, you might mean "Hey, look. It's a patrol car. I don't see the police there. I'm going to steal it." The patrol car is just an object that can do nothing to you by itself.

So if there is a patrol car and a person who is not a policeman is in there, it's "あそこにパトカーがある。中に人はいるが警官はいない。"

You can use いる and ある the same way for, say, タクシー. If someone says あそこにタクシーがいる, it means you can take the cab or the driver is taking someone somewhere. あそこにタクシーがある sounds like there is a car, which is classified as a cab. Probably no one is there in the car.

Guessing you can do the same thing with personifying objects and stuff yeah? Making a candle stick talk or a bunch of plates and kitchenware move etc means they are living right?

I asked my teacher this back in first year she ignored me the bitch, but I assumed I was right anyway

thanks for the clear explanation!

Yes.  AFAIK the only time it's かた is when it refers to a person, or in old Japanese.

Zorlee wrote:

京都駅の中を地下通路を歩いて通ったら、北側の京都タワーのある方に出られますよ！

Huh, at first glance that looks like a sentence with two をs. Presumably it means the same thing as 地下通路を歩いて京都駅の中を通ったら... ?

IceCream: Actually, あるかた is used when talking about being handicapped etc. So it is valid, at least as far as I know!

pm215: Yeah, I noticed that as well, but I guess it means the same thing. It's a sentence  in a mail I received from a friend in Kyoto, so it's 100% native, if not 100% grammatically correct, hehe.

A simple one but still has me stumped

context:　　いつもお腹でして寝てるからだよー

the reply which is confusing me:
え。。？　しょうがないでしょでちゃうんだから

the bold is the part that I dont fully understand. How I'm seeing it at the moment is "eh? I cant really help that can I"  but I'm not sure how to properly translate it because of the ちゃうんだ

bonus points whoever guesses what manga thats from!

Jarvik7 wrote:

@Zorlee:
有る＋方 would be ありかた, not あるかた.

What you apparently found when you googled あるかた is a different construct. 障害のある方, which is 障害のある (has disabilities)+方 (person, not way of doing things) = person with disabilities, not a person existing in a manner that is disabled.

It has nothing to with disabilities itself.
Ex: ひものある靴 = a shoe with laces. 髪のある方 = a person with hair. 髪のない方 = a person without hair

Ah, sweet. Thank you for the heads up!

I have a couple of questions here:

Girl's been dumped:
Girl: ゴミ？　これにはね　石関さんの優しさが詰まってるの。(talking about a hankerchief)
Bartender: それだから振られんのよ。 なあ。
Bartender 2: つうか　ぶっちゃけ重いっすよ。
Bartender: まっ　そんなもん　大事にしてるうちは無理ね。
あんたみたいなのがタイプだって　男でも現れないかぎり。

Well, this is a biggie, but I put it all in for the context.
My problems:
I don't understand ぶっちゃけ重い. I've heard ぶっちゃけ before, as in being frank / speaking one's mind etc, but I don't get this.
I must say that I have troubles with the rest of the dialogue as well, especially あんたみたいなのがタイプ, I really don't understand the が in there.

Last, but not least:
愛を捧げる抜くロボットか。
I don't get the 抜く
I know the one type of ぬく grammar (as in completely/to the end etc), but first of all, that's used after the masu stem of a verb, and second of all, that doesn't make that much sense in this setting. Can it mean "to surpass", or close to that? (On the other hand, in the original subs it said 捧げ (masu), BUT I can clearly hear the dude saying 捧げる, so I don't know...)
Thanks!

@Zorlee
だって is kind of an informal version of だという, i.e., あんたみたいなのがタイプだって男でも現れないかぎり is almost the same as あなたみたいな人が好きだという男が現れない限り (unless you run across a guy who has a fetish for girls like you)

Some newbie questions here, but they show up a lot in my dramas so I'll just ask. I'm stupid.

どういうこと = Referring to an event of some sort?
Umm... often times people in dramas say something then add って at the end of the word? Even with a name, so I think I saw: 莉子ちゃんって. I'm not sure, trying to go off memory, but it's not just with names. Should be "te-form" am I wrong? Some form of it?

Last edited by TheVinster (2010 February 06, 7:57 pm)