intermu wrote:

I've got a question. It's a simple one, but I'm pretty lost.

船は氷を砕いて、冬の海を進んだ。

Yeah, this is from the JRTK deck.

I understand the first part, but not so much the second part. WWWJDIC gives 進んで as:

進んで 【すすんで】 (exp) voluntarily; willingly; of one's own free will

So from what I gather, the meaning goes along the lines of: The ship smashes through the water, winter seas... freely?

進んだ is the preteritum form of 進む. Look that up and you'll get it.

intermu wrote:

I've got a question. It's a simple one, but I'm pretty lost.

船は氷を砕いて、冬の海を進んだ。

Yeah, this is from the JRTK deck.

I understand the first part, but not so much the second part. WWWJDIC gives 進んで as:

進んで 【すすんで】 (exp) voluntarily; willingly; of one's own free will

So from what I gather, the meaning goes along the lines of: The ship smashes through the water, winter seas... freely?

In addition to Tobberoth - 氷 = ice (not water )

Thanks!
Yeah, I guess I'll stick with える for the most part. I just bumped into some expressions, like 考え得る, and this is read うる (at least according to my grammar-book).
I just got a bit confused, but obviously some Japanese people are as well, after a quick google-search! Hehe!

LegionOfDeicide wrote:

じいちゃんから何度聞かされても、忘れてしまう。

聞かされても <--------- I think it means "If whenever I hear" or something.

I am not sure what exactly 聞かされても means, like conjugation wise.
I did research but I didn't find any answers to my question. I have a strong feeling to what it means but I do not know how to put it in English. 助けてください。^^

聞かされる is a causative-passive. -ても is used to mean "even if". Therefor:
Even if I'm made to hear it from grandpa many times, I forget it.
or
No matter how many times I'm forced to hear it from grandpa, I forget it.

For more information on casuative-passive: http://www.guidetojapanese.org/learn/grammar/causepass

Last edited by Tobberoth (2010 January 16, 6:16 pm)

thatkidpercy wrote:

LegionOfDeicide wrote:

じいちゃんから何度聞かされても、忘れてしまう。

聞かされても <--------- I think it means "If whenever I hear" or something.

I am not sure what exactly 聞かされても means, like conjugation wise.
I did research but I didn't find any answers to my question. I have a strong feeling to what it means but I do not know how to put it in English. 助けてください。^^

*edit: too slow!

It's the passive form of the verb 聞かす (the same meaning as 聞かせる, which is maybe more common?), so 何度聞かされても means "no matter how many times I'm told"

聞かす is the short-form causative, which is generally not used in modern Japanese. It is true that casuative-passive is created by turning the short-form causative into passive.

This is also mentioned in the site I posed (though it isn't mentioned that the short-form is an old form, it's just called unusual).

Lots of questions.

"1840年代にはイギリスのロス卿が"
卿: けい, or きょう？

"この数年後の1612年には"
Why is 1612年 connected to 数年後 in this way? Is it essentially expressing "In 1612, after a number of years had passed/following the passing of several years?"

"1755年にはドイツのイマヌエル・カントが太陽系からの類推を元に、天の川はたくさんの恒星が重力で回転している天体で、これを内側から見ているために天球上で帯状に見えているとする説を提案した。"

太陽系からの類推 = Made an analogy in terms of the Solar System? (Or, in other words, "Made an analogy comparing the Milky Way to the Solar System?"). Am I interpreting this accurately?


"当時、いわゆる渦巻星雲が銀河系内の天体か銀河系外の天体かについては依然として明らかになっておらず"

Why is おる being used instead of いる? In other words, how does なっておらず differ from なっていず? Is おらず for some reason just naturally used in replace of いず when the verb is in ている form?

"1924年にハッブルがアンドロメダ銀河 (M31) の中にケフェイドを発見し、それによってM31までの距離が約90万光年であると計算された（その後、ケフェイドに2つの種族があることが判明したためこの距離は現在では約230万光年に修正されている）。"

I don't understand the way ため is being used here, and I'm kind of fuzzy on the ケフェイドに2つの種族 part. "Afterwords, as a result of (something?) being confirmed as related to Cepheid, the distance has since (presently) been corrected to approximately 2,300,000 light years." That's really the most I can decipher.

Last edited by mirina (2010 January 16, 9:41 pm)

marina - you're into some tough stuff! I'd be running to the dictionary every 5 words even with the English version.

yudantaiteki wrote:

mirina wrote:

"この数年後の1612年には"
Why is 1612年 connected to 数年後 in this way? Is it essentially expressing "In 1612, after a number of years had passed/following the passing of several years?"

Yes.  This sort of loose association of XのY takes some getting used to, but it's the same "Y is a kind of X" or "Y is described by/as X" as more familiar phrases like 日本人の先生 or グレーの車.

"1755年にはドイツのイマヌエル・カントが太陽系からの類推を元に、天の川はたくさんの恒星が重力で回転している天体で、これを内側から見ているために天球上で帯状に見えているとする説を提案した。"

太陽系からの類推 = Made an analogy in terms of the Solar System? (Or, in other words, "Made an analogy comparing the Milky Way to the Solar System?"). Am I interpreting this accurately?

I think so; it's saying that he took the Solar System and extrapolated that out to the entire galaxy.

"当時、いわゆる渦巻星雲が銀河系内の天体か銀河系外の天体かについては依然として明らかになっておらず"

Why is おる being used instead of いる? In other words, how does なっておらず differ from なっていず? Is おらず for some reason just naturally used in replace of いず when the verb is in ている form?

Yes.  いず is not seen in modern Japanese; おらず always (or nearly always) replaces it.　EDIT: I may be wrong here, I can't find any support for this -- I know that it's at least common to see おらず in place of いず, but perhaps I should not go so far as to say it always replaces it.

"1924年にハッブルがアンドロメダ銀河 (M31) の中にケフェイドを発見し、それによってM31までの距離が約90万光年であると計算された（その後、ケフェイドに2つの種族があることが判明したためこの距離は現在では約230万光年に修正されている）。"

I don't understand the way ため is being used here, and I'm kind of fuzzy on the ケフェイドに2つの種族 part. "Afterwords, as a result of (something?) being confirmed as related to Cepheid, the distance has since (presently) been corrected to approximately 2,300,000 light years." That's really the most I can decipher.

ため here just means "because" or "as a result of", as you indicate in your translation -- I'm not really sure what that ケフェイドに二つの種族 means in this context; i would have to look at some English writing on ケフェイド (whatever that is in English; Cepheid?) to figure out what that means.

EDIT: Here's what Wikipedia says: "Dr. Baade also discovered that there were two types of Cepheid variables, which resulted in a doubling of the distance estimate to M31, as well as the remainder of the Universe."

Thanks for the response. I Google'd the phrases out of curiosity, and なっておらず in quotes = 29,900,000 results. なっていず in quotes = 11,400 results. I also looked up いず in a J<->E dictionary and all that came up was 用いず. So it seems like いず is really rare.

I never even thought to look up Cepheid in Wikipedia, as obvious as it seems now. But the sentence you posted makes the Japanese one pretty clear now.

Thora wrote:

marina - you're into some tough stuff! I'd be running to the dictionary every 5 words even with the English version.

I've actually had to look up quite a few terms in the dictionary so far, but fortunately the article mostly repeats the same words over and over, so it's not as hard as it seems.

I think pm215's explanation is good. Here's a little more literal translation of  "如何しても話してくれと言われれば、話さないこともない。" (Actually, I'm pretty sure it isn't kanjified in KM...)

"If I'm told that they desperately want me to speak to them, It's not like I would refuse to talk to them."

I feel I am getting a lot of these wrong, but...

Zorlee wrote:

彼の話し方にはどこか強引なものがあった。
彼の話にはどこか納得できないものがある。
This way of using どこか, does it mean "somewhere in his speech (f.ex)"?
That doesn't sound good in English, but I mean something like "I can't put my finger on it, but it gave me that feeling"-ish? Or?

どこか used in this way expresses, similar to what you said, "something is in some way x." So, for example, the first sentence basically is expressing, "There was something in the way he spoke that was overbearing."

如何しても話してくれと言われれば、話さないこともない。
I'm lost here.
Can it mean: "If one is (by all means) told to speak, one might speak"?
(By the way - the "話してくれ", that's a regular manly くれ request, right?

v-ないこともない = can likely be done (lit. there is not a situation where x won't be done)
I think it's something like, "If it's insisted that I say something, I guess I could come up with something to say"? I'm not entirely sure, though.

As for 話してくれ--again, I am not sure about this--but I think when used with the と form, it's speaking of more a general request and is gender neutral. It is very likely I am wrong, though.

以上のような次第で、退職することになりました。
the 以上のような次第で part bugs me. I do think I understand the 次第で grammar, as something like a "reason/how things got this way" kind of thing, but what does 以上 mean here?

I think "以上のような" means something like "like those already stated." So, "Due to the circumstances already shown/stated, (whomever) retired."

Last one:
私の仕事がなかなか終わらなかったので、見かねて山田さんが手伝ってくれた。
The かねる grammar, like I understand it, means roughly "hard to (do)/can't possibly (do) etc", f.ex 応じかねます (cannot/can't possibly accept (a gift or whatever).
But this 見かねて... What's that supposed to mean? "山田さん, that is hard to get a hold of/"hard to see", helped..."
I'm lost on this one...

"Can't stand to look at" or "can't stand to see". かねる also expresses negative or painful emotions. So, I think it's something like, "Since I still had a lot of work left undone, it was such a pitiful sight that Yamada-san helped me out."

Thank you guys SO much!
These will be my last questions for a couple of weeks. I'm going to Japan tomorrow.

Z..

Have fun in Japan!! I'm really jealous.

yudantaiteki wrote:

mirina wrote:

I also looked up いず in a J<->E dictionary and all that came up was 用いず. So it seems like いず is really rare.

You shouldn't find いず in a dictionary because it's a conjugated form of いる; I'm not sure why 用いず is in there.

Sorry, I didn't clarify myself properly; it was one of those dictionaries like on Yahoo! where you can look up a phrase in Japanese and see if something comes back in  English. On Google, if you put in a specific word or phrase in quotes, and then put the English translation next to it, one of those J<->E phrase dictionaries come up. It's something I sometimes do when I'm really desperate to find the general meaning of something.

Last edited by mirina (2010 January 17, 5:54 pm)

If you see どうして in kanji in a real modern text, I will eat my hat -- I stared at that for a while because usually to me, 如何 is いかに but there was no に after it and いかして didn't sound right.

Thanks Thora! Made things even clearer!
And yes, I would've jumped out of the window in frustration, if it wasn't for this fantastic, helpful forum!

yudantaiteki - Hehe, yeah, it was probably unnecessary, but... It's like Pokemon, gotta catch 'em all!