FooSoft wrote:

Here's something that has me stumped:

日本人は学校で英語を習う。しかし、多くの日本人は英語が話せない。

What's the deal with 「多くの」 多く is just adverbial form of 多い but it's here it's being used as a noun/no adjective?

Yeah, because adverbs only work on the verbs, you wanna add a の when you use it with a noun. It looks kind of strange at first, but you'll see it a lot. Especially with 多く just because of it's use. It's the same with たくさん.

You'd have the rewrite the sentence, giving emphasis to English instead of the Japanese people who can't speak it, changing the meaning in the process.
"Japanese people learn English in school, but many Japanese people can't speak it."
would change to
"Japanese people learn English in school, but English isn't spoken by many Japanese people."
..which doesn't make much sense contextually.

多い doesn't really work like a usual adjective in that "多い日本人" can't work to mean "many Japanese people". 多くの is the normal way to express that.

FooSoft wrote:

What's the deal with 「多くの」 多く is just adverbial form of 多い but it's here it's being used as a noun/no adjective?

Go figure. That's the way it is.

        *多い日本人だ. -> non-sense.
        Feels to me like saying "He/she is a numerous Japanese person (!?)".
   
You'd have to write it like this:

        日本人が多い.
        多くの日本人がいる.

And the same applies to subclauses:

        日本人が多い町だ.
        多くの日本人が住む町だ.
     
Further reading:
http://www.guidetojapanese.org/blog/200 … %E3%80%8D/
http://nihongodaybyday.blogspot.com/200 … art-3.html

Jarvik7 wrote:

Those don't mean the same thing, although I'm not sure if you were intending them to

I was not really trying to say they're interchangeable, just listing a couple of valid alternatives; but now you've got me curious. Would you care to elaborate a bit on the differences between these:

        i. 人が多い場所.
        ii. 人が多くいる場所.
        iii. 多くの人がいる場所.

They all mean pretty much the same to me.

(edit: nevermind what was here before; got 多くの人が~ and 人の多くが~ mixed up)

Last edited by iSoron (2010 January 04, 5:23 pm)

Hi everyone!
Some sentences that I've suspended during reviews (I don't think I completely grasp the meaning) + some particle questions:

もう一度試してみる価値はある
Just wondering, why is は used instead of が? I thought one used が with existence, i.e.ある?

大丈夫だ、出てみろ
I don't get the 出てみろ thing. The setting is one dude saying to another dude that he'll go (or rather リュウク in Death Note telling ライト that he'll go). I guess it's the imperative form of the てみる grammar, but I really don't understand the subtle change in meaning. I might be completely off, but...

ふん、選んじゃいない
Just a quick question - this means 選んではいない, right? Or?
(Setting: Ryuuku telling Light that he's not a chosen one)

今のどころよくわかっておりません
どころ is the case. Is this the particle どころ or is it just a formal (?) way to say ところ?
(Setting: Reporter talking about a hostage situation. I guess the particle would make sense, but I'm just not sure really)

そんなやりたい放題の連中をよく放っとけるなって思って
Last, but not least (thank you for your patience!) -
よく放っとけるなって思って is the problem here.
(The setting: A friend talking to the lead character of hana yori dango about the bullies at school. Man, that sounded lame...)
I guess that 放っとける is causal for 放っておける, but that doesn't bring me closer to understanding it. Does it mean that she thought (her friend) was able to leave them alone, or something like that? I'm a bit lost...

Thank you guys SO much.
I'm sorry for all the questions, but hopefully some of them are fast and easy to answer

Z..

Zorlee wrote:

Hi everyone!
Some sentences that I've suspended during reviews (I don't think I completely grasp the meaning) + some particle questions:

もう一度試してみる価値はある
Just wondering, why is は used instead of が? I thought one used が with existence, i.e.ある?

There's really no hard rule like that; は is used for contrast/limiting/etc.  Here it sounds like the speaker has doubts about the success (or whether they will like it?), but thinks it's worth at least trying once.
I really don't understand the subtle change in meaning. I might be completely off, but...

そんなやりたい放題の連中をよく放っとけるなって思って
Last, but not least (thank you for your patience!) -
よく放っとけるなって思って is the problem here.
(The setting: A friend talking to the lead character of hana yori dango about the bullies at school. Man, that sounded lame...)
I guess that 放っとける is causal for 放っておける, but that doesn't bring me closer to understanding it. Does it mean that she thought (her friend) was able to leave them alone, or something like that? I'm a bit lost...

放っておく is sort of a set phrase meaning "leave alone", so this is the potential of that, and the な is the same as ね (not negative here).  A literal translation is something like "I was thinking it was amazing that such a group that does whatever they want would be able to leave her alone."  Or something like that.

(Re: 放っておく, the Koujien has a separate entry for おく of そのままにする。そのまま受け入れる。  The example sentences are 「一応聞いておく」, 「言わせておけばつけあがる」, and 「ほっといてくれ」.  I don't think that 放る（ほうる） is used much beyond ほっておく, though.

Last edited by yudantaiteki (2010 January 04, 1:11 pm)

It's sort of like "That's it", or "I'm done".

I got another small point I'd like to clarify about the usage of 限らない。 For example:

「善人が必ずしも成功するとは限らない。」

So what I'm getting out of that is something like:
"The concept of 'good people don't always succeed' is limited"

Ok, but doesn't 限らない work against the theme of the sentence, partially negating the と body? Is this just a set phrase that I shouldn't try to interpret logically?

albion wrote:

I'd say the とは限らない/ 'not limited' here is more '... doesn't always happen/isn't always true'. So this would mean basically "good people don't always succeed." 

とは限らない seems common enough to me to be considered a set phrase, personally.

Thanks for the reply. Yeah, I kind of meant it in that more abstract limited way (the merit of statement X is limited). Would there be any difference in meaning if the 「とは限らない」were dropped? Is is it adding indirection to make the statement softer?

Last edited by FooSoft (2010 January 04, 11:26 pm)

Ah, I just looked up 必ずしも again, apparently it can be either "necessarily" or "not necessarily". I see, kind of like 全然 can be used for positive and negative statements. Yeah, so then if 限らない is dropped, it would fall back to the positive form. Makes sense!

Last edited by FooSoft (2010 January 04, 11:34 pm)

Thora wrote:

Also, watch for double negatives:   not necessarily not  =  it’s possible
    それが本当でないとも限らない. It may possibly be true.
    この先, もっといい相手にめぐり会わないとも限らない.
    There's always the possibility that you'll find someone more suitable in the future.
         (from Kenkyusha)

A common phrase is そうとも限らないよ  “Not necessarily so.”

Q:  Does 必ずしも add any meaning or emphasis to that sentence? I assume it would mean the same thing without it.  (“Good people aren’t necessarily successful” and “Good people don’t always succeed” can have slightly different meanings in English, but I’m not sure about in Japanese.)

You guys are great, thanks

Out of curiosity, in 「それが本当でないとも限らない」 is it intentionally missing a は after 本当で or just a typo? Don't think I've seen that before.

Last edited by FooSoft (2010 January 05, 12:15 am)

Thank you guys!
Quick question about a Kanzen Master sentence:

国会議員をはじめとする視察団が被災地を訪れた。

Now, I thought I understood the をはじめ grammar, but this sentence threw me off.
Does it mean (something like) "Not only did 国会議員 visit the area that was struck (by whatever), the observation-group did as well." Or (probably more likely): "Starting with 国会議員, the observation-group visited the area struck".
I'm really not sure...

Thanks!