brandon7s wrote:

Here's a question for you good folks. On one of the first pages of the manga はじめてのあく, there's a picture of a dog saying this: 「男なら背中で語れ。」

What I'm having trouble with in particular is the word 「語れ」

Some kind of proverb? If you're a man, talk with your back. (imperative form of last word)

Maybe, "If you're a man, speak with your effort instead of words" or "If you're a man, stand like Akuma in Street Fighter and say something cool?" or "Put your back into it when you talk so you're more intimidating"? hehe, No idea.

Also seen it with this instead of 男:

漢 おとこ
(n,m-sl) honourable man (anime, manga usage); honorable man

Last edited by nest0r (2009 November 21, 4:34 am)

Piano man: いやぁ　でもさ　俺　才能　あるからな。
また　仕事　復活したら　下手すりゃ　有名になっちゃうでしょ。
Lady: いいじゃん。有名になっちゃえば！でもって　もてちゃえばいいじゃん。

Ok, this is my current case, directly from the addictive drama "Innocent Love"
Anyway, this is from a conversation where "Piano Man" and "Lady" talk about whether or not Piano Man should pick up his music-writing.
My main problem is なっちゃう and なっちゃえ. Do they have the meaning? And what do they really mean? My guess would be they are variations of なる, but I really don´t grasp the ちゃう grammar. I know that it is something that happens unintentionally, but I guess it´s more than that...
In addition I don´t understand 下手すりゃ. I know that the すりゃ is from すれば, but I don´t understand the meaning in this context.

My current understanding of the conversation:
Piano Man: "well, because I´m talented, if I were to resume my work, even if I fail (!?) I will become (unintentionally) famous.
Lady: That´s good, right? If you become famous (!?). Because of that (becoming famous), if you become popular/well liked, that would be good, right?

Okey, that was a TERRIBLE translation, but I want to know where I´m off!
Thank you guys!

Z...

Zorlee wrote:

Piano man: いやぁ　でもさ　俺　才能　あるからな。
また　仕事　復活したら　下手すりゃ　有名になっちゃうでしょ。
Lady: いいじゃん。有名になっちゃえば！でもって　もてちゃえばいいじゃん。

Ok, this is my current case, directly from the addictive drama "Innocent Love"
Anyway, this is from a conversation where "Piano Man" and "Lady" talk about whether or not Piano Man should pick up his music-writing.
My main problem is なっちゃう and なっちゃえ. Do they have the meaning? And what do they really mean? My guess would be they are variations of なる, but I really don´t grasp the ちゃう grammar. I know that it is something that happens unintentionally, but I guess it´s more than that...
In addition I don´t understand 下手すりゃ. I know that the すりゃ is from すれば, but I don´t understand the meaning in this context.

My current understanding of the conversation:
Piano Man: "well, because I´m talented, if I were to resume my work, even if I fail (!?) I will become (unintentionally) famous.
Lady: That´s good, right? If you become famous (!?). Because of that (becoming famous), if you become popular/well liked, that would be good, right?

Okey, that was a TERRIBLE translation, but I want to know where I´m off!
Thank you guys!

Z...

なっちゃう and なっちゃえ are casual versions of なってしまう and なってしまえ respectively. Here is the explanation for しまう on Tae kim:

http://www.guidetojapanese.org/learn/grammar/unintended

Tae Kim says it indicates unintended actions, but I don't think it's the best explanation. The basic meaning of this kind of verb+しまう is that the verb's action has done/been completed. If the verb denotes an unconscious/uncontrollable action such as "forget," "die," "have been caught doing something," "be moved to tears," etc., しまう implies the completed action can't be (easily) undone, irrecoverable or something along those lines. In this what-has-been-done-can't-be-undone situation, you might have done it unintentionally. But it's not always the most accurate explanation. For example, 負けてしまう may be unintentional, but I think the "Oops" or "Oh, no! I screwed up!" meaning usually comes from "I can't undo it!" kind of sense.

If you're talking about what you have done, it may imply that you kind of regret it. If you're talking about what another person has done, it may indicate that you're not happy about that.

Regretting something that you will have done in the future doesn't make sense, but it can have a similar sense like "I will end up being in a situation where I have done something (and I will not be happy if this happens)." The guy's 有名になっちゃう in your post is this しまう, though he may be using it in a humorous way or for a certain effect. It's impossible to know his intention without more context. He might be just being arrogant.

The lady is using しまう because he used it. She may sound ironic depending on context. If she's in love with him, she might be jealous or upset because he may have implied that he would be popular among girls. I think we need more context to know why she repeated しまう. I'm guessing she's upset and said it to sound mean to him. But it might be simply because she thinks it's unusual to think being famous is a bad thing, i.e., she might be repeating it because it sounded unusual.

下手すれば/すりゃ in this kind of context is "possibly," "in some circumstances," "might" as in "it might cause you trouble," "if things aren't done right," etc. For example,

(Looking at the huge amount of work you have to do today)
下手すりゃ、こりゃ今夜は徹夜だな。I might have to work all night.

Last edited by magamo (2009 November 26, 11:06 pm)

brandon7s wrote:

Does it essentially make the 「絵を見る」a noun?

Yes. If you drop it, it sounds like Japanese with a stereotypical foreign accent you see in manga and whatnot.

Another question from the Core2000 deck: [時計を見たらちょうど3時だった。」
Given English translation: I looked at the clock and it was exactly three.

I understand every part of this sentence except for the ら, after 見た. What function does this serve? Is it a particle, or part of a conjugation I'm not familiar with?

brandon7s wrote:

I understand every part of this sentence except for the ら, after 見た. What function does this serve? Is it a particle, or part of a conjugation I'm not familiar with?

That's the たら conditional. In this case, it expresses the "when" part of the sentence. When A happened, then B happened.

絶倫パワー

Some example sentences would be nice. Dictionaries aren't exactly forthcoming with nuanced examples of this little gem.

IceCream wrote:

＊　僕　居酒屋でバイトしてたんで 酔っ払いのことには詳しいんです学校の先生って 酒グセ悪い人　多いんですよ
＊　ハメ外して問題起こすのってだいたい教師なんですよね
＊　ふだん　押さえつけられてますから
＊　教師に酒グセが悪い人が多いって
＊　統計でも取ったの？
＊　印象でモノ言わないでくれる？
＊　すいません
are lines 2 and 3 some kind of other conversation thats going on at the table? Or does it make sense somehow?　What do they mean?

If this is a dialogue between two people, it'd be like:

A: 僕、居酒屋でバイトしてたんで、酔っ払いのことには詳しいんです。
(I used to work at a bar as a part-time job so I know pretty well what drunks are like.)
学校の先生って酒グセ悪い人多いんですよ。
(You know what? Most school teachers are problem drinkers.)
ハメ外して問題起こすのってだいたい教師なんですよね。
(If a drunk is making a racket and causing trouble, chances are he's a teacher.)
ふだん押さえつけられてますから。
(It's a stressful job, you know what I mean.)

B: 教師に酒グセが悪い人が多いって、統計でも取ったの？
(How do you know school teachers are terrible when they drink? Do you have stats to back that up? )
印象でモノ言わないでくれる？
(Keep your prejudice to yourself.)

A: すいません。
(Sorry.)

ハメ外して... and ふだん押さえつけられて... might be said by another person (or different guys), but they are of the same opinion as A, and they all think teachers are annoying when they're drunk. 印象でモノ... might be another person's line too.

Last edited by magamo (2009 November 26, 9:57 am)

magamo, you´re my hero. Thank you so much!
I´m just wondering, since you said that my example dialogue contained casual versions of なってしまう and なってしまえ. I (think) I get the なってしまう now, but what does なってしまえ mean? Is it just another way of saying the same thing (feminine?), or does it mean something else?

Again, thank you so much for taking the time to give such great answers!

Zorlee wrote:

magamo, you´re my hero. Thank you so much!
I´m just wondering, since you said that my example dialogue contained casual versions of なってしまう and なってしまえ. I (think) I get the なってしまう now, but what does なってしまえ mean? Is it just another way of saying the same thing (feminine?), or does it mean something else?

Again, thank you so much for taking the time to give such great answers!

This kind of しまう is a word you attach to a verb. But it also behaves like a usual verb to a degree, and you can conjugate it to put a particle. This kind of word is called an auxiliary verb, subsidiary verb or 補助動詞 in Japanese. I suppose you could say しまう is a word to create a new large verb that has the meaning of the original verb and carries the connotation of completion, can't-be-undone, no-intention, etc.

Not only can it take a particle, but it can also take various conjugated forms. For example, if you end a sentence with なってしまえ, it can be interpreted as the imperative form of なってしまう. In this case Xになってしまえ! means "Become X (and be unhappy)!"

Here's a longer explanation of her line:

いいじゃん。有名になっちゃえば！でもって　もてちゃえばいいじゃん。has two verb+しまう forms (more precisely casual versions): なっちゃえば！ and もてちゃえば。

The standard word order of the first half of her line is 有名になっちゃえばいいじゃん。But she reversed the order and expressed her frustration or some other emotion: 有名になっちゃえばいいじゃん -> いいじゃん。有名になっちゃえば！

なっちゃえば is a casual version of なってしまえば, which is a conjugated version of なる+しまう, i.e., なる -> なって + しまう -> しまえば. Technically ば is a particle and not a part of conjugated form, but it's not important here. The point is that it's the conditional ば. Tae Kim explains this ば in the "General conditionals using 「ば」" section in this page:

http://www.guidetojapanese.org/learn/gr … nditionals

Since しまう is an auxiliary verb, it follows the exact same rule as other verbs when it comes to conjugation, i.e., the final vowel "u" in しまう becomes "e" when you attach ば to it, so it becomes しまえ + ば.

So なってしまえば is a combination of:

なる = verb "become,"
しまう = auxiliary verb to indicate completion of verb's action (often carry a negative connotations such as "I can't undo it!" etc.),
ば = particle for a condition.

いいじゃん is pretty much the same as いいじゃない, which is a casual form of よいではないか. To me いいじゃん sounds slightly more informal than いいじゃない, but that might be because I grew up in Osaka where locals don't usually use じゃん.

Either way, when you use いいじゃん, いいじゃない, or よいではないか with the verb+ば conditional form, you're forming a suggestion, request or the like. So it means "Why don't you 'verb'?," "How about 'verb'ing?" or something along those lines.

Now the verb used with the ば conditional form is the なってしまう combo, and its object is 有名に (famous/popular). So it's like:

Why don't you + become famous + (completion sense).

As I said earlier, the reversed word order makes the sentence more emotional. And She used しまう for an effect because he used it. So I took the line as:

("But then I might become famous," huh?) What's the problem with being famous? Go ahead. Be a famous guy already!

I added "What's the problem with being popular?" because I think she used しまう to sound ironic.

The same goes for でもって　もてちゃえばいいじゃん. As you probably already know, でもって is a informal word for "And," "Then," etc. used at the head of a sentence. So it means "And be a popular guy!" with the same rhetorical sense.

AHA! I get it! I didn´t think of the effect of the ば particle.
Thank you so much!

rrrrrray wrote:

from professor layton:

本来であれば女性を危険な場所へは連れて行けない。

I specifically don't get what 本来であれば means in here.

本来であれば, 本来ならば, etc. are used when you explain what things should be like in a normal situation and imply that the current situation/what you were talking about earlier/what you're going to say in the next sentence is irregular. Its translation can vary greatly depending on context. For example, if you're teaching a slangy English expression that doesn't follow grammar rules, it can be "Grammatically speaking" as in

"Grammatically speaking, this is considered errors. But native speakers often say this way in conversation."
本来であればこれは間違いなんだけど、会話ではよくこういう言い方をします。

If you're talking about an exceptional case in a court, 本来であれば might mean "Legally speaking."

In short, it's used to show what is normal, proper, etc. So your example sentence is saying, "It's unusual to take a girl to a dangerous place," "You shouldn't take a girl to a dangerous place" or something along those lines.

Last edited by magamo (2009 November 28, 10:44 am)