Another but different question, is んだよ used as a command in the following quote:

覚えてくんだよ

This one about the infamous のだ／のです and more.

For example here:
そのため皮膚が伸びるのです。

Why not そのため皮膚が伸びます?. Well, I am not sure but here is my take:

そのため皮膚が伸びるのです。
And for that reason the skin grows/expands.
(That the skin grows/expands is already known, the focus is in that it grows for the reason already explained そのため).

そのため皮膚が伸びます。
And for that reason the skin will grow/expand.
(The focus is on what will happen, possibly new information).

Lately I have been noticing that whenever the う-form of verbs is used, it's usually talking about the future, or rather that's what it roughly translates to in English. Which finally led me to realise that Japanese has indeed no past, present or future. It has states of being which can be used to talk about the past and present/future as well as other things. This is more or less a follow up to the 'completed/non-completed' paradigm revelation I had that I read in the (free to download) first chapter of JSL.

I am going to use 食べる and (来る for the tricky points 3 and 4) to explain my understanding of the differences between 〜る、〜た、〜ている、〜ていた. Please examine and criticise:

**1** 食べた --> to eat (finished state)
It's not the past tense of 'eat' but rather the state when the action is finished/completed (since eating is an ongoing process, having started the process counts just as well) which can be used conditionally, to make a suggestion, to talk about the past, the present, future, etc.

〜食べたら　(if/when the state is finished). For example this can be used to talk about the future (after [when] eating is finished).

〜食べたほうがいい　(the state (when eating is finished) is better). Right, in English you would rather say "It's better if you eat" which obviously means "It's better if you start the process of eating".

〜食べたことがある　(have you (ever) eaten ~ (before)?) The state (finished eating) + to be (unfinished being/existing). Does the state exists?. And what about ことがあった?, well 食べた remains the state of completed eating and あった would add the state of completed being, for example ウベアイスクリームというのを食べたことがあったが、味は忘れてしまった, something like I had eaten the Ube ice-cream but have already forgotten what it was like.

**2** 食べる --> to eat (unfinished state)
It's not the present/future tense of 'eat' but rather the state when the action is still unfinished or rather not yet started/completed. Also I hear this form is used in manuals to give instructions, which if so, would make total sense.

**3** 食べている --> to eat + to be (unfinished state)
The unfinished state of being + the verb before. 食べている is not "is eating" but an impossible form in English equivalent to "is being eaten" that is not the passive voice, because "to eat" is transitive. (You eat the dog or the dog eats you but neither of you eat without an object).

With 来る however, きている is not "coming" but "[╳ is] has come" (or the much more meaningful "is here" but less helpful if you are linguistically inclined and can't be a normal person and let yourself take in the language) which does work because "to come" is intransitive (whereas "to eat" is transitive), also since Japanese has only un-/finished states "coming" is the same as "will come" (because the subject has not come yet). Of course you can say is on the way to mean is currently coming like 今くる途中だ which illustrates that "coming" and "will come" is only "will come" in Japanese.

**4** 食べていた --> to eat + to be (finished state)
The finished state of being + the verb before. Like above is not "was eating" but another impossible construction equivalent to "was being eaten" that is not the passive voice.

With 来る, just like above, きていた is "[╳ was] had come" or "was here".

Last edited by turvy (2012 August 17, 1:02 am)

turvy wrote:

This one about the infamous のだ／のです and more.

For example here:
そのため皮膚が伸びるのです。

Why not そのため皮膚が伸びます?. Well, I am not sure but here is my take:

Answering questions about のだ without the context is impossible; taken completely out of context, either 伸びます or 伸びるのです might be OK.  Your explanation is plausible.

そのため皮膚が伸びるのです。
And for that reason the skin grows/expands.
(That the skin grows/expands is already known, the focus is in that it grows for the reason already explained そのため).

そのため皮膚が伸びます。
And for that reason the skin will grow/expand.
(The focus is on what will happen, possibly new information).

Either one can be "grows" or "will grow"; it just depends on the context.

With 来る however, きている is not "coming" but "[╳ is] has come" (or the much more meaningful "is here" but less helpful if you are linguistically inclined and can't be a normal person and let yourself take in the language) which does work because "to come" is intransitive (whereas "to eat" is transitive), also since Japanese has only un-/finished states "coming" is the same as "will come" (because the subject has not come yet). Of course you can say is on the way to mean is currently coming like 今くる途中だ which illustrates that "coming" and "will come" is only "will come" in Japanese.

This is the only part I'm not sure about in the rest of your post but I need to think about it more before I respond.

Last edited by yudantaiteki (2012 August 17, 1:03 am)

Can somebody tell me how to interpret the とに in here? Is a mistype? I cannot make sense of it, at least.

『13ウォーリアーズ』（原題: The 13th Warrior）は、1999年のアメリカ映画。アラブ人旅行者アフマド・イブン・ファドラーンの旅行記と古英語の叙事詩『ベオウルフ』とに想を得てマイケル・クライトンが書いた小説『北人伝説』が原作である。

Here's a sentence from one of the innocent books (死神の精度) which I can't quite parse. It probably won't make much sense unless you've read the story, but roughly the story is from the point of view of a Shinigami, so 私たち at the beginning refer to him and his fellow Shinigami. It happens that the Shinigami are crazy about music, and at off times in their "jobs" hang out in CD shops using the test-listening headphones:

私たちは下手をすると、仕事の合間にミュージックを楽しむのではなくて、ミュージックを堪能する合間に仕事をするようなところがあるので、情報にも精通している

The 5th one is 悪巧み（わるだくみ）.
6th: 百年早いぜ
5th to last, maybe ぞ?
4th from last, きもさぞかし I think.
3rd from last - 歌だって歌ったのに
Last one your guess is right, I think.

The others I can't hear well enough to say.

apirx wrote:

Hey, can someone help me translate a T-shirt I bought?

front: 負けず嫌い
back: 欲しがりません 勝つまでは！！

I thought I knew what it meant, but quite a few Japanese people laughed about the T-shirt and now I'm not sure anymore.

Hmm, that's a little weird but I'd take a guess and say:

front: I hate not losing.
back: I don't want it. Not until I win.

ergerg wrote:

Here's a sentence from one of the innocent books (死神の精度) which I can't quite parse. It probably won't make much sense unless you've read the story, but roughly the story is from the point of view of a Shinigami, so 私たち at the beginning refer to him and his fellow Shinigami. It happens that the Shinigami are crazy about music, and at off times in their "jobs" hang out in CD shops using the test-listening headphones:

私たちは下手をすると、仕事の合間にミュージックを楽しむのではなくて、ミュージックを堪能する合間に仕事をするようなところがあるので、情報にも精通している

I never feel completely confident without some context to confirm my understanding, but I'll tell you what I think it means. This is a horribly written translation, but whatever.

If we're not careful, rather than listening to music during breaks in our work we have a tendency to work during breaks from immersing ourselves in music, so we are quite knowledgeable about it.

I don't know if this is what was giving you trouble, but for me, the rikai-chan entry for 堪能 wasn't sufficient in this case. If you look at the J-J Yahoo entry it's quite clear though:

２ 深くその道に通じていること。また、そのような人や、そのさま。たんのう。

P.s. I remember having difficulty with that sentence when I was reading 死神の精度.

Last edited by Splatted (2012 August 20, 7:06 am)

@rayath: That makes a lot more sense. Thanks for correcting me.

Recently I'm hearing ～させていただきます a lot and I was wondering what it means. I searched the internet and found the following:

「送付させていただきます。」
「退職させていただきます。」
「提案させていただきます。」
「同行させていただきます。」

を正確な下から目線の表現に変えるとどうなるか、例として下記のとおりご紹介してみます。

「送付いたします。」
「退職させていただきたく、宜しくお願いいたします。」
「ご提案いたします。」
「ご同行いたします。」

Meaning, e.g. 送付いたします＝送付させていただきます ? Is this understanding correct?

yudantaiteki wrote:

Rayath wrote:

One more thing. As 欲しがる is used instead of 欲しい, it's pointing to a third person.

がる does not have to refer to a third person.  It can also mean behaving or acting in a certain way; I think here that's what it means -- it's sort of like "I won't be greedy".

Ah OK... I've seen it exclusively with a third person, but googled it a little now and I guess there are some uses with 1st person...
Thanks for pointing that out.

I used to hear it a lot when my classmates would give presentations: 何々について発表させていただきます. Just like もらう, you're not actually asking permission -- you're going to do it whether they like it or not -- but you're sort of thanking the listener in advance for indulging you.

Tori-kun wrote:

させていただく seems to be something very different that is very commonly used in every speech in Japan as it seems to me.. according to the internet it is commonly used in a wrong way...

させていただく is a fairly everyday phrase, though it's quite polite.  The 発表 example is extremely common.  People waiting on you use it a lot too.  There's not a lot of chances to say it to you in a combini or something, but if a store is wrapping something for you, or you're dealing with a more complex sale (a cell phone contract, for example), させていただく is very commonly used when they tell you they are going to do something.