出てって is 出ていって (行って).  I think the last と is this father reporting what he heard about his son's death.  I'm not 100% sure of that, though.

Tori-kun wrote:

Tame ni can only be replaced by noni when one does something in the process of achieving a goal.

体を強くするために毎日プールで泳いでいる。 I'm swimming every day in the pool to strenghten my body. (The reason why I find the explanation given strange, is that "strenghtening my body" is in fact a goal one achieves by the process of swimming every day. So for me this sentence is not explaining the difference between those forms that can express an "in order to.." in English quite well)     
体を強くするのに毎日プールで泳いでいる。 wrong!

Can someone explain that?

The 'noni' clause contains the process. It has to be both goal and process. It seems the difference can be subtle.

日本語の新聞を読むのに辞書を使う。
I use a dictionary to read Japanese newspapers.
(ie the process of reading the newspapers involves using a dictionary)

p.335 wrote:

noni is similar in meaning to Vinf/nonpast 'tame ni' ('in order to'). The latter purely means 'purpose' but the former retains the meaning of 'in the process of', even when it means 'purpose'.

It says 'noni'  doesn't work in 「生きるために食べる。」b/c the noni clause isn't really a process (but it is a purpose). "to be alive/to survive" is the goal, but maybe be we don't conceive of ourselves as being actively in the process of being alive?

Whereas the process is more apparent in 「この町で生きていく　ために/のに　月に２０万円が必要だ。」 To keep living in this town, we need 20万/month.

So I guess "strengthen my body" is seen more as an ultimate goal than an ongoing process. "I swim to strengthen my body" works with 'tame ni' in Japanese. But the 'noni' version - "While strengthening my body, I swim" sounds iffy. (They mark it "??")    "I run to get fit"   vs   "In getting fit, I run".   

hmm, not sure if my explanation adds anything.

Last edited by Thora (2011 October 07, 2:48 pm)

@Thora and SomeCallMeChris: Thanks!! Both of your explanations were very enlightening:) I guess I will need to be careful about のに in future.
I read a bit further on that topic of "in order to..."-clauses and all in all there are obviously 4 ways in Japanese, namely with those listed above; it seems they have different usages, although their translation into English are pretty much the same (or am I wrong?).
From what I read/found on the internet in explanations I wrote the usage for what is expressed behind the phrasing. 'OK' means that I understood it, whereas '?' indicate I couldn't find any good explanation and advice is needed :)

①ために　理由／目的 OK
Question: I encountered this expression also with は following に. Is the difference only emphasis?
②のに　"In the process of~" OK
③ように　状態 OK
④には　?? I found には expressing "in order to" also once but cannot find the example sentence right now..

今日は都合が悪くて行けません　ｖｓ 今日は都合が悪いだから行けません

Ran across this in core2k (former sentence) and feeling my lack of handle on the grammar since I had never seen くて used in a sort of "because" manner. Is there a nuanced difference between the sentences?

The second sentence is incorrect.  You can't use だ after 悪い.

Huh, for some reason I keep thinking you can follow an adjective with plain form　です. But now that I think about it, only ever hear stuff like ”あつい～” or ”あついですね～！” so I guess it makes since.

But ya, I could see the くて sentence sounding more natural. ＋て still just doesn't feel natural to me for things that aren't a sequenced list of things done. Like "i want to meet and chat." 出会ってしゃべりたい, assuming its right, I still want to slap a conjunction in there like それで. Eventually...

I just came across this sentence in 新完全マスター文法N1:

一人の人間の明るさは、場を明るくするにとどまらず、周囲の人々に心身の活力をも与える。

What I think is interesting about it is the をも before 与える.  Normally when you would use を, but you want to add the meaning of 'also,' you drop the を and just use も (I.e., 'I ate cheese' would be 「チーズを食べた」, but 'I also ate cheese' would be 「チーズも食べた」.  You wouldn't normally say チーズをも食べた in everyday speech).

Is there anything special going on here, or does をも just mean the same thing as も but in a more literary style?  I feel like I've definitely heard this before, but never really thought about it.

yudantaiteki wrote:

をも is found in written language sometimes; it's just more emphatic than も.

Kind of what I expected then.  Thanks!

Yes.

明鏡国語辞典 certainly lists 身体 as being one of the ways of writing からだ, so it's definitely not an error.  体 is most common, 身体 is the second most common.  You should know both of them, since even 身体 is used quite regularly (there is also an older varient of 身体 that is obscure enough that you don't need to know it, and it doesn't come up on IME).　　I'm guessing that 身体 is pronounced as しんたい more often than 体 is.

Last edited by Tzadeck (2011 October 19, 1:52 am)

Hey, I'm getting mixed up with these forms, sounding so alike to me.

によって　（手段・根拠・場合・原因を現す）
But which form (によって、によっては、により、による) expresses 手段・根拠・場合・原因, respectively? Like this:

によって 手段 ?
によっては 根拠 ?
により 場合 ?
による 原因 ?

In Rikai-sama they have the same meanings, but I'm not sure if it sounds 自然 when expressing 手段 with all of these forms. Can't really see the grammar behind it, to be honest. Thanks for any precious help!

Edit: Ok, it seems like による　is just a noun modifier, f.e. N１によるN２. Can't think of an example sentence, though. In DoIJG I found により／によって that により is only used in written Japanese. によって can only be replaced by により when it means "dependency", f.e. depending on the person, the medicament will have different effects.

Last edited by Tori-kun (2011 October 19, 10:58 am)

Thanks for answering my previous question, especially to magamo for his explanations regarding yamato numbers.

I'm here with yet another one:

この仕事は来月の下旬には終わります。

この しごと は らいげつ の げじゅん に は おわります

It's once again from core6k.

Are there really two topic markers は in this sentence? Or is this a mistake? Or some grammar I don't know?

この仕事は来月の下旬には終わります。

は sets up a topic, and what follows is a comment about it. Basically triggering you to 'keep this in mind'.
First この仕事は raises the topic, and then continues with 来月の下旬には to further narrow down what is to be commented on, and then 終わります is the comment. So 終わります  ((it) will end) is a comment foremost regarding the job, but more specifically what will happen to it in the last 10 days of next month. Without the second は, the sentence will mean much the same thing, but there is less of sense of talking specifically about what will happen next month. To understand the nuance a little better imagine the following two English sentences:

Regarding this job, In the last ten days of next month, it will end. (with second は)
and
Regarding this job, it'll end in the last ten days of next month. (no は)

In a more loose translation, you'd probably forego the use of 'regarding', and just say:
In the last ten days of next month this job will come to an end.
But I kept it in there to preserve the structure of the Japanese more accurately.

Last edited by nadiatims (2011 October 20, 5:24 am)