nadiatims wrote:

both は are topic markers. That example consists of two sentences connected via a conjunction (ので）.
今日は日曜日だ + 銀行は休みます。

What if it's  今日は (日曜日なので) 銀行は休みます?

I guess Narageboshi is asking about multiple はｓ. In the sentence 今日は銀行は休みます, are they both topic markers? Are they the same? Does it depend on context? Are they both telling us "what the sentence is about"?  How many topic markers can there be in a sentence?  Does order matter? 

How would you explain these sentences?

彼はコーヒーは飲んだ。

文明国は男性は平均寿命が長い。
文明国は男性が平均寿命が長い。

Tzadeck wrote:

Nagareboshi wrote:

面白いだね。

Just as a heads up--you can't use だ with an い-adjective.  Either 面白いね or 面白いですね.

Grammatically, you can. It's just more native-like when speaking to drop the だ.

Missing ん, 面白いんだね. Which i had thought would make it a valid statement or sentence. But i could be wrong.

fakewookie, thank you for clearing this up once more. Of course i was aware that ので is there to explain, why banks are not open. And that it does not matter whether or not there are two は. It just caught my eye, because i had grammar notes all over the place on this piece of paper, except for one of the two は.

Thora, your asumption is correct, i was looking for more information on this.

pudding cat, so can i conclude that the two は are only used:

1. to introduce two independent subjects
2. ので explains that on this day banks are closed
3. but other than that there is and other than that they have no function

Or can it also be seen as marking a contrast? The Japanese explanation says something about this, if my understanding of it is correct. Something along the lines of "Banks are closed, because it is Sunday. [In contrast to other days, where they are open.]

yudantaiteki wrote:

Also, re:は, you should remember that the "topic" and "contrastive" meanings of は are not two totally separate meanings.  There's a lot of overlap between them, and marking something as a topic is often contrastive in some way.  Whether は has a "very" contrastive meaning is usually dependent on the context, not the grammar of the sentence.  (Also didn't we just have a big は が discussion recently?)

Yes, Pudding cat's link mentions that topic/contrast is often ambiguous and and depends on context, but that in the case of sentences with multiple はs, [edit: it's easier to predict based on order. (Presumably based on the one "topic は" per clause rule.)] (The Goo excerpt appears to be a summary of Prof Kuno's take on はand が. So folks wanting an English version could read Kuno. Link in a previous は・が thread?)   

I thought your "banks, at least" was a good way to convey subtle contrast (and distinguish it from "exclusive が" - which can sometimes seem to overlap with contrastive は.) 

I'm interested to hear nadiatims's views.  Those sentences raise at least 3 specific issues from past threads about which nadiatims has very strong opinions (and has requested examples.) It's not my wish to trigger another grand debate on the basics. I think we can avoid that. :-)

Last edited by Thora (2011 June 28, 9:00 pm)

yudantaiteki wrote:

The main place you see this mistake happen all the time with foreigners (even really experienced ones) is when だ comes before other things -- i.e. *面白いだと思う or *面白いだから.

One reason for this, in my own personal experience, is that the だ was never explained correctly in class. In the very beginning stages, we were just taught that the だと was supposed to come before 思います. There was no real explanation that the だ was the same as in これは猫だ, the だと was simply "what comes before 思います." Maybe it wasn't taught that way, but that's what the general thought was among the students.

Asriel wrote:

yudantaiteki wrote:

The main place you see this mistake happen all the time with foreigners (even really experienced ones) is when だ comes before other things -- i.e. *面白いだと思う or *面白いだから.

One reason for this, in my own personal experience, is that the だ was never explained correctly in class. In the very beginning stages, we were just taught that the だと was supposed to come before 思います. There was no real explanation that the だ was the same as in これは猫だ, the だと was simply "what comes before 思います." Maybe it wasn't taught that way, but that's what the general thought was among the students.

Very little is explained correctly in Japanese class.

Asriel wrote:

In the very beginning stages, we were just taught that the だと was supposed to come before 思います. There was no real explanation that the だ was the same as in これは猫だ, the だと was simply "what comes before 思います." Maybe it wasn't taught that way, but that's what the general thought was among the students.

That reminds me of something I read recently about ways in which Japanese is being taught differently to young students than to univ students. Rather than teaching all particles separately (too abstract?), some teachers start younger students off with combined expressions (eg と思います  or  を読む). だと　wouldn't be such a great combo, though! :-)  Makes me think it'd be difficult to do a good job teaching children without some special training.

SugaHOLiC wrote:

ドリムス。写真いっぱい撮ったので、またアップしますね

いっぱい in this case just means 'a lot'.

SugaHOLiC wrote:

とゆうことでドリムス。達をお届けしました

とゆうことで is making a reference to things already mentioned earlier. Specifically the dreams. It means something close to 'in that way; in other words; as I mentioned...etc'.

Well... I have some questions about the meaning of this phrases. I have an idea of what they mean, but I'm not quite shure what I think is correctly.

でも、一つだけありません。それは、「言葉」。女の子は「言葉」を言いません。

Does this mings something like... The things are not alone. There are words. But the girl doesn't say any words?

お母さんと女の子の部屋には、何もありません。

And does this mean there is nothing in the girl's and mother's room?


The phrases belong to the first story of the first volume of Japanese for Graded Readers.

thora wrote:

What if it's  今日は (日曜日なので) 銀行は休みます?

I guess Narageboshi is asking about multiple はｓ. In the sentence 今日は銀行は休みます, are they both topic markers? Are they the same? Does it depend on context? Are they both telling us "what the sentence is about"?  How many topic markers can there be in a sentence?  Does order matter? 

How would you explain these sentences?

彼はコーヒーは飲んだ。

文明国は男性は平均寿命が長い。
文明国は男性が平均寿命が長い。)

first up, 今日は銀行は休みます. In this sentence, I would say both are topic markers (because that's what は is), but we need to define exactly what 'topic marker' means in the context of japanese grammar. The particle は just primes the listener to interpret what follows as a comment loosely about the word before it. So you hear 今日は and you're primed to interpret what follows as a statement about today. When you then hear the next part 銀行は, you're then primed to hear the next clause as relating to banks in some way, but you understand that this topic and its attached clause "銀行は休みます" must relate somehow to the previous topic 今日は which was kept hanging and is kept in your working memory until it resolved (terminated by ending the clause).
In theory there is no limit to how many nested topics can be introduced in this way and still be grammatically correct, but obviously if the sentence becomes too long it strains the working memory and we start to forget what has been said before the speaker has even finished.
For an english example:
I play basketball on Tuesdays.

This sentence could be translated to japanese with 'on Tuesdays' taking topical position. Further details can be continuously added narrowing down the topic infinitely:

I play basketball on Tuesdays after school before dinner with Tom...


This explanation for nesting of multiple はs can also be used to explain nesting of multiple がs which applies in one of your other 2 sentences:
文明国は男性は平均寿命が長い。
文明国は男性が平均寿命が長い。

Here devoid of context they mean the same thing.

edited for spelling errors.

Last edited by nadiatims (2011 June 29, 7:15 am)

nadiatims wrote:

thora wrote:

That reminds me of something I read recently about ways in which Japanese is being taught differently to young students than to univ students. Rather than teaching all particles separately (too abstract?), some teachers start younger students off with combined expressions (eg と思います  or  を読む). だと　wouldn't be such a great combo, though! :-)  Makes me think it'd be difficult to do a good job teaching children without some special training.

I think that's a bad way to go about it because it gets the hierarchy wrong. Particles are basically inflections that belong to the preceding word and are not attached to any particular verb allowing for reordering as in the following:

だからその教え方は良くないと私は思います。
or
先生が本を子供に読む。

I don't think it's such a bad idea, particularly for young children, just learning sentence patterns first is much easier for them than thinking about why something is actually used.  It's like in science, when you first learn about atoms you don't start with quantum, you start with 'the electrons go round the nucleus' and build up from there.

pm215 wrote:

claudia wrote:

でも、一つだけありません。それは、「言葉」。女の子は「言葉」を言いません。

This is another of those sentences that looks a bit odd on its own but makes much more sense with the context, which is:
部屋には、ものがたくさんあります。絵本もピアノもテリビもあります。人形もあります。
So following that list of various items that were there, でも、一つだけありません。is kind of literally "but one-thing only doesn't-exist", or more sensibly translated "But there is one thing that is not there / But one thing is missing."

それは、「言葉」。

...and the それ here is referring to the missing thing from the previous sentence.

お母さんと女の子の部屋には、何もありません。
And does this mean there is nothing in the girl's and mother's room?

Yes.

That makes much more sense, thanks for the explanation!