plumage wrote:

I wish others would drop the past and live for today and tomorrow and treat each other as if we weren't the ones who committed the evils of the past. Because we didn't, and dealing with present strife is hard enough without dredging up that past.

It's just so hard. Whenever I see someone who's shorter, lighter skinned, weird color haired, strange shaped eyed, female, or over the age of of 30 この変な感じがわく.

J7 wrote:

There is a difference between forgiving and forgetting. Everyone should forgive, no one should forget.

Is is possible to remember the past without pointing fingers?

plumage wrote:

Agreed. But neither should we impute to today's Germans the sins of their grandfathers. Or today's white men the slavery sins of great-grandfathers. Or today's Spaniards the sins of their conquistador ancestors, etc..

As long as they openly admit to their ancestors having done it and teach it in their history classes, no problem. They shouldn't have to be shamed about it or have to make non-stop apologies though. US history classes have giant gaping omissions in their curriculum (I went to middle/high school there), to the point that many think that the US has never done anything bad ever. That is denial. Them forcing exchange students (me) to pledge allegiance to the flag every morning just before that class also left a bad taste in my mouth

I personally think the Nazi-shame in the west is over the top. It is illegal to sell old Nazi uniforms etc. That to me is like making it illegal to sell confederate uniforms in the US. It's also illegal in many countries (Canada included) to say the that holocaust never happened. Even if you don't agree with that statement, someone should have the right to say it if they want to. Free speech ftw.

kazelee wrote:

J7 wrote:

There is a difference between forgiving and forgetting. Everyone should forgive, no one should forget.

Is is possible to remember the past without pointing fingers?

I've never heard of Germans pointing fingers and getting all upset when teaching Roman history. (Or the reverse from Italians when teaching about how barbarians sacked Rome).

Then again one side isn't omitting most of their foreign policy history in that case.

Last edited by Jarvik7 (2009 May 31, 1:51 am)

kazelee wrote:

Don't know if it applied to exchange students, but citizens cannot be forced to say the pledge of allegiance. Most don't know that, though.

Tell that to detention. Too bad I didn't have a lawyer retained back then

kazelee wrote:

Don't know if it applied to exchange students, but citizens cannot be forced to say the pledge of allegiance. Most don't know that, though.

It doesn't really matter who knows that, people still get forced to do it all the time.  In high school I was well aware that it wasn't okay to force students to say the pledge, but it happened to me and everyone else quite often.

mafried wrote:

Mcjon01 wrote:

Also, I wish I could drop a nuke on this topic.

Fabrice can.

or, people could simply stop posting comments.

OK. I'll watch my tone.

Plumage

It seems like you hold the view that Japan wanted to conquer "half the world" and all of the sudden decided to attack Pearl Harbor, that the imperial Japan was an evil empire which was controlled by a merciless dictator, and American military was the liberator of all Asia. I am in “no way” approving what Japanese military did in WWII, but this view is very one-sided.

First of all, Japan did not want "half the world". Yes, it had ambitions for the dominance in China and south east Asia. But many western countries also had the same interest, and US was not the exception. The tension between Japan and US increased through the years, and US started an oil embargo to impede Japanese dominance in China. Japan tried to negotiate, and were going to cease all military action in China in return for lifting the embargo. President Roosvelt was well aware of this, he even knew exactly how much Japan will compromise through information from the intelligence agency. But instead of negotiating, he sent Japan what it considered an ultimatum. And 10 days later, the "surprise". Wikipedia says that the head of the War Department Henry L. Stimson wrote in his diary "how we should maneuver them [the Japanese] into the position of firing the first shot without allowing too much danger to ourselves." 10 days before Pearl Harbor. The war on the Pacific was essentially a conflict between Japan and US over the dominance in China and south east Asia. Japan might have been more aggressive, possibly too aggressive even in the 30s' standard, and an attack is an attack so it deserves retaliation, but notion of Japanese "surprise attack to conquer Asia" was merely a tactic the administration used to bring US into the war, like "weapon of mass destruction" was.

Secondly, even though Japan's democracy was deteriorated severely after the start of Sino-Japanese war in 1937, Japan was a democratic country before that period by the standard of the era, and comments like "The emperor attacked Pearl Harbor" "Hirohito should have stopped the war after such and such" are completely unrealistic. Emperors in Japan had been mostly symbolic, and if you knew Japanese history, you would know he did not have such power. So when Japan lost and US invaded it, most Japanese people did not consider them as the liberator. Asian countries might have been happy that Japan lost, but then US itself was one of the countries that attacked and invaded them, and many western countries started wars against them after WWII to reclaim their former colonies.

I repeat, for the second time, I am not rebuking the use of nukes itself. There was a certain circumstance and I believe Truman did his best for the best from his point of view. But saying "It was a right thing to do" "I would do the same if I went back in time" will not be accepted in Japan. Try saying that to some Japanese people and you will look like a complete racist to them, you might as well call them gooks. Even if nukes were necessary, how hard was it to drop one on top of Mt. Fuji, or in a middle of Tokyo bay? It would have made virtually the same effect in terms of encouraging the surrender and preventing Russia's involvement in the invasion. But instead, 2 different types of nukes, one plutonium and one uranium, were dropped on top of a half million civilians. Swarm of American researchers went into Hiroshima and Nagasaki as soon as Japan surrendered, and a large number of bodies and body parts are taken as "samples" from their family's hand and sent to the states. It was also banned to publish or broadcast anything that mentioned the atomic bombs and their victims.

If burning hundreds of thousands of civilians alive like the photo below and cursing survivers' lives for life by severe burns and cancers is not inhumane to the extreme, I don't know what is.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c … mb_002.jpg

Last edited by masaman (2009 May 31, 8:05 pm)

Dunno what sort of US high school or middle school you went to, but US history, both good and bad was taught to me, and I am a recent byproduct of the US educational system. Euro story and World history as well- please don't speak for the entire US educational curriculum based just on your experiences. Not only that, but you could choose to take AP classes, which I did, where all of this was fully discussed, perhaps in greater detail than some of the college classes my friends are now attending. I went to a regular public high school in the Midwest, nothing special with no bells or whistles.

I can also tell you that many Japanese students don't study everything related to World War 2 as well. For example, several of my J-friends didn't even know what the Holocaust was (How's that for jukensei studying? lol )

Granted, there were two theaters, but it's still a part of World History and I think people should know about both.

EDIT: Interesting video btw.

http://www.pjtv.com/video/Afterburner_/ … 1808/6629/

Last edited by Diana (2009 May 31, 9:42 pm)

kazelee wrote:

AP? Damn you elitists. Damn you all. Mwhahahhahhaha...

Seriously though, my school taught according to the test (goran standardized bastards). We got the world history cliff note version. Needless to say, the details were spared.

Was like: WWI, Germany, reparations, holocaust, axis*, allies, normandy, pearl harbor atomic bomb, fail...

Sounds like my old school. For what it's worth there were no AP classes other than math & English, which I was in. For everything else they just bumped you up a year. Ex: I was taking 12th grade computer science in 9th grade.

ghinzdra wrote:

welldone101 wrote:

We still have bigger gun boats.

not for long....
I can't remember the name of the project but within a couple of years japan will have 4 task force with as much brand new mini-aircraft carrier (japanese pilot are currently under training with harrier for vertical /short distance take off  as the strip is insanely short).....

strangely enough nobody seems to worry.... except maybe china....

Anyone who worries about sea-based weapons systems that have a top speed of, oh, 30 mph or so, is fighting the last war.  In the wars of the future, stuff is going to happen much more quickly than that.  The more money sunk into obsolete systems, the more likely the money is, indeed, going to be sunk.

Subs control the sea, Ships control the air, Airplanes control the ground. Everything else is pretty much a target.

Ok, I'm being very simplistic here. However, with a mobile piece of geography that is an aircraft carrier, you can plant planes pretty much anywhere. So while the "land" moves a slow 40 mph (probably faster though), the planes on it can go much faster.

Still, that "land" is nothing more than target practice to a sub, of which North Korea and China have PLENTY.

On what ghinzdra say, it will be an interesting time around Japan when its constitution changes to allow the use of an Army and the ability to use war in its state actions.

ghinzdra wrote:

japan is also a top contributor to star wars project and many other high tech military project.
most people are totally oblivious to this fact  but budget speaking  japan is the 2nd biggest military force on the planet , and as usa is a league of its own ,  you could even say the first  . Not bad for a so called pacifist country..... which has spent the last 20 years to narrow down the extent of the "no war/no army"  constitution article .

Oh and btw an aircraft carrier  .... carries aircraft!
it's "slightly" quicker than 30mph and when you know the distance between china , corea and japan  I think it's quick enough even for the war of the future..... and I won't even mention submarine , natural part of an operational task force , and their balistic missile....

An aircraft carriers' flank speed is about 35 knots (roughly 40 mph), and when it's holed and on the bottom of the ocean (speed = zero at that point) then its pilots face the same problem the Japanese pilots at Midway faced.

Modern carrier task forces have layers of defense of course.  They are not sitting ducks.  But the central problem is that the "man in the middle" can only do about 35 knots (think Shaquille O'Neil with a load of Cheney buckshot in his legs), and the offensive weapons coming in are doing mach X.  I realize the US Navy puts a lot of emphasis on carrier task forces, and this was wonderful, once upon a time.  When they lose 4 or 5 carriers in one day (as they eventually will) they won't put all their eggs in such a delicate (and horribly expensive) basket.

Admirals, as well as generals, always fight the previous war.

Last edited by Wally (2009 June 01, 5:34 am)

Wally wrote:

vinniram wrote:

it's about time Japan forms the JSDF into a full-fledged military.

Where have you been for the past few decades?  Asleep? 

not me but it seems like the bureacrats in the american and Japanese governments sure have been, especially with the Japanese government ignoring the pleas of its citizens to remove these troops, so that rapes and murders of civilians are stopped.

sorry, but the Okinawans paint a VERY different picture. I recently wrote an article on the topic, and if you think these rapes are a one-off event, you are VERY wrong. And, just recently in Yokosuka, a taxi driver and a woman were both brutally murdered by US troops. Just saying that crimes are associated with these troops, and the Okinawan people are sick of being ignored on the rape issue.