TaylorSan wrote:

The reason I want to maybe just go with a BA, is that I would like to get to Japan!

Ha yeah, perfectly understandable.

TaylorSan wrote:

If I want to I can later round it off with a teaching certificate [...] You do mean a teaching certificate right?  There are TEFL certification options too, that I could do and add to my resume, in a relatively short time.

I mean a regular teaching qualification which would allow you to get a job at any school in your home country. TEFL certificates seem like a waste of money to me... experience is more important I think. Well if I was hiring I'd prefer someone with a year's experience over someone with a certificate and no experience. If they both had the experience but one had a certificate I'd probably ignore the certificate and make the call based on personality alone. But that's just me.

TaylorSan wrote:

I'm just am a little adverse to doing a whole extra year, when teaching in institutions is not my ultimate goal

Yeah it's a difficult decision. Do you play it safe and guarantee some kind of job if things don't go to plan, or do you trust yourself to make the business successful whatever happens? A lot also depends on getting a visa. Your best bet would be to set up the company and get things rolling while working as an ALT, then it's simply a case of convincing the government that you can make a living. If your company is making a profit of, say, $20,000/year and you're fluent in Japanese, housed and paying taxes, I don't see any reason why they wouldn't grant you a working (business?) visa. It would be stupid not to. It's also possible to sponsor yourself. EDIT: just been looking at the different types of working visas. With your background in art I'm sure you could qualify for the Artist visa, which simply states that you must do "activities for the arts that provide income".

TaylorSan wrote:

Do I need a teaching certificate to start after school program?

Probably not, but when parents inquire about your suitability it wouldn't hurt to be a proper certified teacher rather than someone who just enjoys working with kids.

welldone101 wrote:

Harhol you misappropriated these quotes to me somehow.  Can you fix that please?

Very sorry about that. Fixed now. It must've been quite alarming seeing yourself saying, "I don't enjoy teaching"...

Last edited by harhol (2009 May 21, 6:19 pm)

TaylorSan wrote:

I'm trying to get input from people who have experience living/working in Japan, as to what type of degree would be most beneficial.  I really want to teach kids there, but don't want to be stuck in a crappy ALT situation (bad pay, bad curriculum, location etc).
[...]
The hard part for me would be the curriculum (sounds like many people find it very dull…I’m not surprised) and possible bad geographic locating (hard to DJ if I’m stuck in BFE).  But I think I could stomach it (pros out weigh the cons).

So I have an idea of what I’d like to do that is rooted in life experience (if I could do it without the BA I could and would, although I know the BA will give me new skills).  What is tough for me is deciding on the type of degree.  Yes I could get a real teaching certification, but that would take an extra year.  My thoughts at this stage (early, and still seeking feedback, hence this post) is that perhaps a degree in communications would be good, as it would give me a well rounded skill set (some business, tech, ect.), and I could minor in education.  I do not know what will give me the best opportunity, both in the initial stage (JET-ALT etc.) and in a more general way.  I mean it’s possible that I get burnt out with TEFL, but still want to live/work in Japan, and decide to work in another field.
[...]
I also wonder about my age,
[...]
ありがとう

Hey Taylorsan, sounds like you are going to be a great benefit to all the Japanese school children you come across!  I'll try to answer your questions, but first let me tell you about me.  That way you'll have a better idea what to do with my advice, what to accept, and what to reject.  I'm 26, married, and have been teaching HS in Japan for 2 years.  Previously I taught at a University in Chile.  My degrees are in English and Math (no education focus and no teaching English as a second/foreign language cert.)  I plan to get a masters in Education/simultaneous teaching cert. when I go back to the US.  I also learn a lot from my wife, who is 10 times smarter than me.  She has her TEFL and studied history.  She is going to get her masters in comparative international education.  She comes from a family of educators.  We taught at the same university in Chile and teach in the same school system here in Japan.  Now you can freely dismiss any of my advice you don't like as "Stupid young pup trying to tell me how I should live my life! gheeerr outa here!!!!"

Let me talk about age first, I know a couple older couples who are on JET and they were all benefited by their experience.  It really helps the application process to have a resume with teaching on it.  I know a couple 30+ teachers of English here too (one at our city university and two at a private catholic school) and they get along fine.  Age in Japan is the ranking system.

Next is curriculum while working at ALT jobs.  In JET it depends on your situation and ability.  I have been given charge of the curriculum for the classes I teach to develop lessons.  Other ALTs are in a similar situation.  The majority of academic high school ALTs and one-shot (ALTs who travel from school to school per day) don't get this freedom and end up being tape recorders or "the foreign guy! clown".  Coincidentally they are also the ones who end up with free time to blog about it.

Degrees:
I would say, since you are in the formulation stage, it's a good time to aim high.  The first thing I would do is strike out "Speaks English" and "Speaks Japanese" from your list of qualifications.  If you start thinking now of your language as an enabler rather than a plus, you'll focus more on the skills you actually want to acquire.

As you mentioned earlier there is a big issue with institutional education and it's lack of quality.  But the solution to that is not to ignore the routes people took to work in those institutions.  If you want to educate children, especially in Japan, you are accepting their faith that you'll put them at an advantage to everybody else.  There are very few second chances in Japan, so educators here are under a lot of pressure not to waste a moment of the developmental stage.  Study education! Even if it's self study, everything you learn while about education will be applicable in the real world.

I think the prevailing opinion in this thread is that things like Tefl and Celta and a BA in education are lines on a resume to help you get a leg up.  The reality is that speakers of English are NOT equal to teachers of English to Japanese children.  Yes, these degrees can be replaced by experience.  But you will be doing a disservice to the kids you do teach while you are in your "experimentation and learning" phase while you figure out what it is with English that Japanese kids struggle with and need help with.  I think that both experience and study is needed to get it right; and since you already have a lot of experience teaching kids, studying education will fill in the gaps and give you solid understanding of all the techniques you inferred and discovered on your own.

It sounds like you want to be an educator, and artist, and a child counselor.  So focusing on your goals might help hone your studies.  I'd say education, art (education), or child psychology are your best bets.  Everything you've experienced will feed into what you will learn, and everything you learn will feed into what you will accomplish.

Best Opportunity:
It sounds to me like you have the experience to get a job at JET or an ALT and don't need to tailor your degree to increase your chances.  If you were to want to do that, education is your best bet.  Communication is cool, but basically it's a watered down English degree with a lot more memo writing and some common sense thrown in.  (out with the Milton, in with the 'how to write politely to a bank for a loan' kind of stuff, no?)  I'm philosophically opposed to communication degrees because I believe your personality and language ability affect communication more than any skill set.  Thus religion, life history, and command of English most heavily influence how to relate to people.  And a business degree teaches more business; an education degree teaches more education; a psychology degree teaches more counseling (and grants huge megalomaniac complexes as a side perk!).

But what will I learn in TEFL?  You'll learn English grammar from a foreign perspective.  You'll learn what challenges native speakers of certain languages face when learning English.  You'll get to tutor ESL learners and learn from successful ESL teachers.  Did you know there are only 5 possible types of sentences in English? (that last one was type 3, or 第三文型 in Japanese)  Of course there is a time when you need to stop preparing to do something, and just go freaking do it.  But since you are going through schooling now anyways you should go for it all the way.  If I'd had strong goals like you in college I would have gotten a lot more out of my education.  If I had your goals I'd study child phsychology, art education, TEFL (self study), and east asian studies on the side (possibly self? possibly minor?).  I finished math and English and ended up with 80% of a philosophy degree in 4.5 years so I bet you could totally do it.  If I registered for a class it was either a required class in one of those degrees or it was a philosophy or gym class.  I stuck to that rule, and made it with room to spare. (the .5 was for failing two math classes, oops)

Ok I really have to get back to planning this handout, I'll check back later.

Wally wrote:

If you want to live "Western (more like American) style", it's going to cost you.  Even a smallish (~70 square meter) 3 "bedroom" (3LDK) [one of the "bedrooms" will be so small that it more resembles a walk-in closet] is going to run at *least* US$2,000 a month, probably more.  I'm assuming a reasonably nice building and neighborhood.

Deals are out there, but everything is calculated very carefully by the real estate people, who advise landlords on rent and procure almost all of the tenants.  Walking time from the station?  (The farther you are willing to walk, the cheaper -- even cheaper still if you are willing to be so far out that you need a bus to get to the train.)  Do trains originate from that station?  (Can you ever possibly get a seat in the morning, or are you doomed to an hour or more of strap-hanging?)  Higher price, then.  Where is the supermarket?  It's all considered, trust me.  Very carefully considered.

The one thing that is beginning to improve for renters is that so-called "key money" can now usually be negotiated, sometimes negotiated away completely.  Obviously, your fluency or lack thereof is going to have a bearing on what kind of deal you can arrange.

I'm a landlord.  I know a little bit about rents, at least in Setagaya's Akazutsumi area. 

With the poor economy, prices have been plummeting. I have a 2DK (both tatami rooms) an 8 minute walk from my station, 15 minute walk from the biggest station in 九州 (Hakata), 3 minute walk from a supermaket/McD/KFC/Home center/etc.
It's a pretty big place, 2 stories with the tatami rooms on the second floor and I only pay 4.2万 a month. The bad part is it's a little bit old, the stairs are nearly vertical, it was built in the early 80s, and the sound travels through the whole place, but I only have two neighbors (it's a pretty small building). I think I was pretty lucky but in general rents are dropping. I also didn't pay any key or deposit money and only have to pay damages when I move out. However if I break my contract early I have to pay 2 months rent if its in the first year and 1 month in the second. I've also seen a ton of 1 room places for under 4万 in pretty good locations.

jorgebucaran wrote:

@FutureBlues, dude I think you don't like Japan...

I am curious, besides his stories which can't be argued, is he telling the truth about cost and living? Appears to me that this post is contrasting every other.

His post is pretty much right on and I feel the same way about a lot of what he said. I have a really good situation- I'm an ALT and make the standard 25万 a month, which isn't bad pay for what I do. I arrive at school at 8:30 each day and head home sometime between 2:30-3:30, as long as my prep work is done (occasionally I am at school until 5 or later, but that's rare). I have a ton of free time at work where I can study, and as of this school year I now have internet (which is how I'm posting right now). I'm at work, screwing around on the internet. In 20 minutes I'll have two classes to teach, another free period, and then lunch.

It sounds great, but I've not been feeling the best recently. This job is mindnumbingly boring. In the US I was an IT Project Manager facing actual challenges and new and interesting situations every day. This makes a cake-walk look challenging. My job is basically to keep people happy, which can be a load of bullshit a lot of the time. Just yesterday I had to apologize for being 10 minutes early to work at a kindergarden (I teach kindergarden kids once a month). They said I was "late" but I arrive 10 minutes before my scheduled lessons and then sat there for 10 minutes, just waiting to start. This was too close for them and the kindergarden princapal called up my main school to ask where I was. Which then got me in trouble for being "late." Usually I come to school a half an hour before first period (8:30) but no one told me what time to get to the kindergarden so I took the most convenient train. Bad idea. I also got a dirt look and was corrected by the vice princapal for not using formal japanese with him. I know I should, but when you say 心配した 1000 times and 心配しました 10 times what is more likely to come out under stress? They're lucky they have a teach who speaks any Japanese yet I get in trouble. You deal with situations like this all the time- I understand that I'm in a different culture and try to adapt as best I can, but at the same time they can't expect me to be Japanese. I'm not, and never will be.

I've been seriously considering heading over to Australia over the summer break to look for a new job, and I certainly will have to find something new at the end of my contract in March. I refuse to be an English teacher for longer than that, unless I absolutely cannot find anything else.

So you see, there are reasons to leave and stay. There is a lot great about Japan and a lot that can be hard to deal with. As a foreigner, you will ALWAYS be on the outside, you can never be part of the "in crowd" because you look different. Perhaps other Asians can manage it, but non-Asians certainly cannot.

Wally, just out of curiosity, how did you come to be a landlord? Through a spouse? Are you self-employed?

(If you don't want to reveal any information then that's fine. I'm just intrigued.)

Wally wrote:

Wooden structure, yes?  In the 80s, Japanese wooden structures were designed for a maximum of 20 to 30 years.  Some last longer than that of course, but you are at the tail end of the structures' expected life.  These older dwellings are difficult to rent to anyone except those near the bottom of the economic ladder (young women, particularly, are picky).  The landlord probably was getting 50 percent more, maybe 100 percent more, when the building was new.  Enjoy the low rent.    You'd be paying more in Tokyo, almost surely.  I admit to not having much of a handle on Kyushu rents other than in Kumamoto, where we have relatives.

The economy does not seem to have had much of an effect, yet, on rents in Tokyo.  Obviously, if vacant rooms start sprouting up in good residential areas, that will change.  But not yet.  We are at 100 percent, and we haven't had to lower rents.

Yep, wooden, with no insulation. If there's an earthquake in Kyushu I'm screwed.

Yeah I'll enjoy the cheap rent until I move on to wherever it is I head next Even the crappy Leo Palace I stayed in before this was more expensive.

harhol wrote:

Wally, just out of curiosity, how did you come to be a landlord? Through a spouse? Are you self-employed?

(If you don't want to reveal any information then that's fine. I'm just intrigued.)

I've been retired for about 11 years now, although I keep my hand in the equity market.  (With a maximum combined tax of 10% regardless of holding period, anyone with capital *should* pay attention to it.)

We became landlords through purchase.

I love living in Japan but will head home after finishing my 3rd year. I don't want to fall into the trap of becoming a 45 year old washed up esl monkey.

Wow- GREAT POSTS!

welldone101 wrote:

As far as the certificate, you are right about the experience part.  You can learn on the job in a year a lot of stuff specific to your job and far exceed the usefulness of the classes you had.  The line on your resume itself is worthless and expensive, but the things you learn during the class aren't necessarily as worthless.  If you know the theory, when you have the experience you can quantify it and learn from it much faster.  I wouldn't have wasted a lot of students time my first year if I'd prepared better.  However, by now it doesn't matter anymore probably.

Yes this is something I'm considering from different angles.  I am experienced with teaching, and have learned a ton about how to be a good teacher.  But it is mostly from just doing it.  As of now I have very little institutional schooling, and have no idea about teaching language (other than the research I have done about self study for japanese, and books, programs etc, about effective learning methods, the mind etc.).  One idea I have, is to see if getting a TEFL on the side, in the coming year, will give me opportunities to teach English here, as a part time thing.  I would get the line on the resi, (may not make much difference as you say), the educational benefit to make myself be more effective from the go, and if I could do some tutoring/part time work I could come to Japan with some real TEFL exp. (and if I start now it would be a few years worth).

One thing I will be doing is looking into Teikyo University here in Denver, which is  basically a Japanese private uni for students from abroad (mostly 日本人 I imagine) to learn English (I won't be a student there).  I hope to find some students there to do language exchange with.  But perhaps there are events/programs through Teikyo that can get me some type on TEFL official experience/tutoring too.

The thing to wiegh in here is the cons (expensive, additional work to add to a already heavy load, and not much resume benefit for the price, or even worthless, as you say) and the pros (as described above).  Given all that, what do people think?

welldone101 wrote:

As you mentioned earlier there is a big issue with institutional education and it's lack of quality.  But the solution to that is not to ignore the routes people took to work in those institutions.

Yes I am willing to take the best route to do this, and the reason for the post is to learn from people like you.  I will also be making the same inquiries to my personal contacts in Japan, and be looking  more deeply at the programs/schools I will be attending. But gathering information via this forum from people who have been through it, is super valuable right now. What I'm trying to do is figure out the best combination of self study/institutional study/education/certification, both to kick ass on paper, and at what I do. I am definitely investing time now to learn get feedback (perhaps one of the most important stages).  I'm too damn old to waste my time learning lessons the hard way, that could have been avoided by a little research.  This is not to be confused with paying dues, something I well understand, and welcome.

welldone101 wrote:

If you want to educate children, especially in Japan, you are accepting their faith that you'll put them at an advantage to everybody else.  There are very few second chances in Japan, so educators here are under a lot of pressure not to waste a moment of the developmental stage.

I think you bring up a key point here.  A true educator is aware of and embraces the tremendous responsibility  to be an effective, ethical 先生.  I also know that to be awesome at working with kids, you have to be genuine!  You need earn their respect, and to do that you need to respect them, understand the demands and pressures they are dealing with, and care about their lives.  Everyone of us has had good teachers and bad.  No matter the methods (I'm not downplaying their importance), I think the best teachers ALWAYS have these qualities.  One of the big draws for me to teaching in Japan is seeing some of the challenges Japanese youth are faced with, and a valid uderstanding of myself that feels I can have a posative impact.

welldone101 wrote:

It sounds like you want to be an educator, and artist, and a child counselor.  So focusing on your goals might help hone your studies.  I'd say education, art (education), or child psychology are your best bets.  Everything you've experienced will feed into what you will learn, and everything you learn will feed into what you will accomplish.

I'm philosophically opposed to communication degrees because I believe your personality and language ability affect communication more than any skill set.

Wow great advice.  I think my idea about a communication degree was more from a point of view that if all I could do in institutional education programs in Japan was be stuck in mindless curriculum traps and the like, then my only long term option (possibly) would be to start my own thing. But if that didn't work out and should I decide I wanted to go another direction, a degree that was more general would accomplish work visa eligibility and give me some skills If I decided to do something else, like tourism or .....(?). I think my biggest fear was that the degree I got wouldn't impact the quality of teaching job I got.  Maybe a silly fear, but hearing about ALT situations makes it a bit uneasy for someone in my position (a deep life desire to live in Japan, and teach kids, but at a stage in life where I can't afford to go to school for 3 years only to be chewed up and spit out by a bad ALT gig).

But hearing about your situation has given me a bit more hope in the system.  I just want to be able to utilize my skills and benefit my students. Perhaps the only ideal thing for me long term would be creating a program.  But it if I could at least get to create my own curriculum as you are doing (even if I had to jump through a few hoops, pay dues etc.), I would really enjoy that.

welldone101 wrote:

If I had your goals I'd study child phsychology, art education, TEFL (self study), and east asian studies on the side (possibly self? possibly minor?).

Damn, good advice!  I really am interested in psychology, and east asian studies (already self studying). One thing I will be looking into is doing a year of my degree in Japan.  I don't know how it all works, but if I could be in Japan as part of my goal to get to Japan, I think that would be double excellent, and logic tells me that this would be the best way to do asian studies.  The key here is how effective is the east asian studies degree wise (I know, a naive question, but I'm in the dark about this one).  I have no doubt that the better I can understand Asian culture, the better off in general I will be. In a personal capacity I am full on board with that....but I want to know how much of a "leg up" it equates to.  For some reason I picture every other JET applicant has this (sorry, I'm clueless, EDUCATE ME PEOPLE LOL). 

Maybe being an artist has me wary of the values of degrees.  I have known many people who got a degree in art......but in the art world you are judged by the quality of art you produce.  No one says, "oh I really like your work, but I'd rather buy art from someone with a real degree." Of course school can be great, but many artists with degree's saw the quality of art I could produce (self taught),and told me that for the price, don't bother.   

That I can understand.  I got feedback, and payed dues, etc. I lived it, and my investment for skill was time (inquiry and practice), made possible by motivation.  As fun as it would have been, I am glad I didn't spent 50k on art school.

I did the same thing with DJing....yeah there are schools that teach it!  I think that's kind of a ridiculous way to do it.  I learned by doing it, watching professionals, and having the help of friends who where really good too.  Most of my learning came from just practicing my ass off.

And the same is true for me now with Japanese.

But to live in J land I have to get a degree, no getting around it.  So it is vital that the degree gives me the "on paper" opportunities, and is the most bang for my buck.  The true education comes from what you learn, in a class room and real life (it's all real life).  And like you said they enhance each other.

One more question, then I'll end my ranting mini novella of a post. 

At this point I'm thinking I will take Japanese uni class.  I know people (AJATTers in particular...and I'm one in my own way) "just say no" to J class.  But my thinking is that I have to do self study anyway, to achieve my goals.  I also have to get X amount of credits.  I will have to really be efficient time wise to reach my goals.  There is little room for error.  So I kind of see J class as being easy, because self study will have me ahead of things.  If I view it this way, J class will get me more time to do self study, because for the most part I can just walk into the class and do the dance. Much of the work will already be done. And this in turn will be credit hours toward a degree, but in the big picture will free up time for self study, as opposed to another set of classes that involve more time and effort (=less self J study).  Plus I will meet a few people who are interested in Japanese (I'm all alone right now LOL), and have access to an instructor who can perhaps clarify details for me.  I'm not too worried about potentially negative influences from other students, or a poor instructor (I always walk my own path when it comes down to it, and just use what's best.), and I don't feel I need to preach self study, or AJATT to anyone ("your all doing this the wrong way!!!!!" LOL).


Thoughts on this element are appreciated (I know there are many out here who have experience in this).

One more thought about the toilets....
I'm a bit of a Taoist.  "The Way" they do it in the east is correct.  For health reasons, people squat. That's a much more natural position for your colon.  I actually perch on the western style Porcelain Throne (I got no shame!). 
Haha I may be the only one who is actually looking forward to this system! 


Thanks ya'll. Super helpful, and inspiring!

Last edited by TaylorSan (2009 May 22, 3:33 am)

kyotokanji wrote:

I give the thumbs up to the toilets too, being a woman may be more tricky though.

A bit of Taoist myself too, just going through 365 Tao by Deng Ming-Dao, a charming daily thought to take with me on my daily stroll. I hope I can learn enough kanji to read some Lao-Tzu in the origonal. Regarding RTK, Taoism would say to enjoy the journey and not the goal. Dont just keep looking to that 2042 goal, enjoy getting there.

Learning kanji won't teach you how to read classic Chinese...

Learning kanji from RTK helps learning Chinese almost as much as it does Japanese. In both cases you only have a vague idea of the meaning and no grammar or vocab to back it up (if you do RTK first). The only difference is that there would be more characters that you don't recognize.

Last edited by Jarvik7 (2009 May 22, 1:32 pm)

I think you're being rather optimistic. I've found that the people most enthusiastic about coming to Japan are the ones who want to leave the soonest, because it doesn't live up to their expectations. It's better to be realistic and take things one thing at a time, rather than planning years in advance despite never having even visited there.

BTW, citizenship requires a LONG time to get, well over 10 years, even if you get married. It also carries no benefits over permanent residence other than the ability to vote and run for office. Japan doesn't allow dual citizenship so you'll need to throw away the citizenship of your native country (if you ever go back it'll be as a tourist). Personally I'd never give up my Canadian citizenship, as much as I love Japan, just for the national health insurance and social security.

Last edited by Jarvik7 (2009 May 22, 5:52 pm)