Hmm wikipedia says defendant in presumed innocent.  I wonder if that's true, or true only on paper, or false.  It contradicts what I was told by my "discuss the legal system" partner, this 50 year old guy who's doing a lot of reading on the subject because he's terrified of this new lay-judge system.  He does not want to be called up.

You guys have some really interesting insight into Japanese culture! It's intriguing to hear about.

What I want to know is, as a culture how....introspective...is Japan? For example, I think that Western culture makes an effort to self-evaluate and criticise aspects of our culture that are perhaps outmoded. Social commentaries/documentaries by the likes of Michael Moore spring to mind. I get the impression that sort of cultural criticsm is rarely expressed in Japan?

Last edited by blackmacros (2009 May 25, 3:32 am)

welldone101 wrote:

Suspects are required to wear coarse fabric smocks and go barefoot in sandals to the court hearings so as to not influence the judges with fancy clothes.  They also have to be tied up with rope.  This is changing I believe thanks to the lay judge system being implemented, but only in those cases.

Sounds pretty North Korean to me.

Not trying to divert the conversation about the legal system.  Very interesting, please continue...

I was just wondering if anyone would care to describe and interject from experience, some positives of being a foreigner living/working in Japan?

The problem is that 99% of the foreigners online who speak of their experience working in Japan worked as English teachers. While that's fine and dandy, one can't honestly claim that's the same thing as working in Japan as a Japanese person. An English teacher isn't competing with Japanese people. They aren't forced to learn and work with Japanese culture.

I'd love to hear more people tell everyone of their experiences, I would just like in particular if someone who did not work as an English teacher had something to say.

Watch out for the dingos, their tatemae is something fierce.

My first job in Japan was three months at a factory in Shiga prefecture.  It was from 8am to 9pm, six days a week doing heavy lifting.  I was the only English speaking employee ever to work there and my Japanese was poor.  I communicated by playing charades.  The supervisors were all Japanese men and my co-workers were all Brazilian and Chinese and a few Japanese women.  The small town I lived in had no Westerners and the school kids looked at me like I came from Mars.

I actually made most of my friends in Japan riding the train.  Japanese people would often approach me to practice their English.  Those I enjoyed talking with, I gave my email to.

captal wrote:

Jarvik7 wrote:

Watch out for the dingos, their tatemae is something fierce.

Whatever the word for the opposite of tatemae is, that's what Australians are. They are the most blunt and open people I've ever met. Often refreshing, often shocking.

I'm going to take that as a compliment

Captal (and others), it sounds like you are just going through phase 2 of culture shock. If you stick it out, it will get better. Promise

A lot of people seem to complain about not making many friends in Japan.

It can be done of course, but generally it's not going to be on the same level as "friends" in the West.  What a lot of folks don't seem to understand is that the Japanese themselves don't make a lot of "friends", certainly not many in the sense that friendship is widely understood in the West.

Japan is full of acquaintanceships -- much more than friendships.  One of the reasons this is true is that friendship in Japan implies a rather complex and absolute ritual of social demands that simply don't exist in the West.  Gift-giving is a perfect and classic example of what I'm writing about.  Want to take a week off of work and go on a vacation somewhere?  How many friends do you have?  Better have a spare suitcase and plenty of spare cash, because you will offend every single one of them that you don't bring back a gift for.  Friends at the office (where even people who are *not* friends will need gifts), friends around the neighborhood.  Relatives that you see frequently.  They all need constant care and attention.  Quite frankly, friendship in Japan can be an exhausting proposition, and that's precisely why the Japanese themselves keep the quota to a manageable number.

There is actually a rather lengthy book written for Japanese on "How to be Japanese".  That's not the name of the tome, and I don't have it handy right now (but I think one of my relatives can dig it up).  It's a serious book -- a user's manual if you will -- detailing exactly what you need to do, and when you need to do it, to be a "practicing Japanese".  (My quotes.)

For example, let's say you need a garment altered or repaired, but you don't have a sewing machine.  When Aunt Noriko makes a routine visit, (she has a machine), you ask her if she will let you come over and make the alteration on her machine.  Naturally, she says don't bother; she will take the garment and do it for you herself.  So far, so good.

But here is where you need the manual.  Aunt Noriko is going to send your garment back to you by 宅急便 when she is finished, because she is a sweetie.  And then she is going to wait by the phone for your thank you.  That thank you had better come before either of you go to sleep, or there is potentially going to be all hell to pay.  Aunt sweetie is going to never, ever, forget that you waited until the next morning to call and thank her.  Well, she might forgive you, but you'd better have one heck of a reason, and even the slightest delay sincerely risks rupturing a relationship.  It doesn't matter how close you thought you were to Aunt Noriko, or she to you.  The relationship can quickly turn into resentment and rancor.  Aunt Noriko has read the manual.  You'd better know what it says in there.

And this is with *RELATIVES*!

I could go on ...

But suffice it to say that friendships in Japan create 恩.  Layers and layers of it.  It takes concentration to have true friends in Japan, lots of concentration.  You can't ever be unmindful of 恩, even for a hot second, or those friendships will rupture.  It's much, much more work than most Westerners are willing to endure to have serious friends here, and most Japanese understand this.  They understand that it's an immense amount of work even for them.

Some Japanese will enjoy making acquaintances with foreigners simply because they hope they can, finally, have a relationship that is not a sticky web of social ritual.  But many Japanese are so insular that they don't even understand that Westerners don't have these same social strictures that so thoroughly govern Japanese life.  So they will simply operate on the same basis that they operate in their own culture.  And that basis is:  "Deep friendships are potentially a massive pain in the ass, so keep the number down to a very small limit or risk being overwhelmed by endless responsibilities."

Few Japanese have a large number of close friends.  It's a different culture.  Expecting to come here and make a pile of close friends simply because you are a warm and outgoing person is unrealistic.

In the West, a lot of people often say that they have a lot of close friends.  But if you really pin them down on the difference between friends and acquaintances, the number starts shrinking rapidly.  I think one of the big cultural differences here is that Japanese tend to keep the two categories well segregated, never blur the lines, never mistake one thing for the other, and keep much more social distance between themselves and acquaintances than they do with their very, very few close friends.  In the West, the lines blur more often.  Not here.

My take on this place, anyway.  Others may have a difference experience or opinion.  But I would say that if you come here expecting to make a large web of close friends, you are probably going to be disappointed.  Such webs exist very rarely among typical Japanese adults.

Jarvik7 wrote:

Evil_Dragon wrote:

That would be Honne. (本音)

It's not so much the opposite as it is the counterpart.

Often enough, it is both.

Evil_Dragon wrote:

Jarvik7 wrote:

Evil_Dragon wrote:

That would be Honne. (本音)

It's not so much the opposite as it is the counterpart.

Often enough, it is both.

I don't see how it can be described as opposites. If, for example, someone's tatemae was to be friendly but cold to strangers (as the past many posts describe), that is because they don't want to be rude, but also don't want to make friends with you (more accurately, don't want to create an 恩 relationship, see Wally's post for why). The honne is that they don't want to create a relationship with you (nothing personal), not simply the opposite - "friendly". If they were walking around with their honne out, they would just say "I don't want to have a relationship with you" instead of being polite but non-committal (thus avoiding the relationship).

Or to use a previous example: your host-parents say they don't have time to goto a themepark with you, but go without you later on. They lied to prevent hurting your feelings by saying that they'd like to go by themselves. That is the tatemae. It saves your face and their face. What is the opposite of that? Intentionally hurting your feelings by saying they don't want to go with you, and then going with you anyways?

It's really over-simplistic to think of it as opposites, or even something that can have an opposite.

Anyways, I recommend "The Japanese Have a Word For It". While at times dated, and always business-centric, it's a very useful book. Most of the other stuff I've read on these topics are academic journals so it's not possible to give you links. Since I've graduated, even I don't have access anymore. One other source that has some insight into it is "Women on the Verge". It's actually about the gaikoku akogare of Japanese women, but it also talks about tatemae etc.

Last edited by Jarvik7 (2009 May 26, 5:17 am)