wrong stroke count for kanji 2099

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Reply #1 - 2009 April 12, 5:04 am
Green_Airplane Member
From: Slovakia Registered: 2007-09-21 Posts: 48

Hello, I have a possible error to report. All my sources (including RtK3) say that the kanji for 'violet' 菫, frame number 2099 has 11 strokes. However the site says 12.
Thak you.

Reply #2 - 2009 April 12, 5:36 am
Tobberoth Member
From: Sweden Registered: 2008-08-25 Posts: 3364

Looking at it, I have no idea how it could possibly be written with 12 strokes, so go with 11. Kanjidic however also states it can be written in both 11 and 12 strokes though it gives no indication of how.

Reply #3 - 2009 April 12, 6:38 am
Umikuma Member
From: Utah Registered: 2007-11-18 Posts: 51

The older form of kusa kanmuri (the three strokes at the top) splits the horizontal line in the middle so the radical ends up being two crosses. That's where the extra stroke can come in. Twelve strokes if you use the older form of the radical, eleven if you use the modern form.

Once you get outside of the Jouyou kanji older form varients show up a lot more.

From KANJIDIC - A Database of Information on the 6,355 Kanji in the JIS X 0208 Standard http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/kanjidic_doc.html

B140 KUSA-KANMURI e.g. 苛 always counted as 3 strokes (Halpern counts this 4 strokes for the (mostly level 2) kanji where the older form is often printed.) Note that this has been carried through to kanji where this element is not the indexing radical, such as 朦.

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Reply #4 - 2009 April 12, 7:26 am
liosama Member
From: sydney Registered: 2008-03-02 Posts: 896

Umikuma wrote:

Once you get outside of the Jouyou kanji older form varients show up a lot more.

Yeah that's what i've noticed. Most chinese characters use the extra stroke form of 艸 (i.e 4 strokes) instead of the 3. I think the "japanese-way" is the 3 stroke way, while the Chinese way is 4.

This is my guess based off no research, i can't be mucked.

Reply #5 - 2009 April 12, 7:32 am
Green_Airplane Member
From: Slovakia Registered: 2007-09-21 Posts: 48

I see. You just gotta love this ambiguity, don't you :-)

Reply #6 - 2009 April 14, 5:07 am
Umikuma Member
From: Utah Registered: 2007-11-18 Posts: 51

You get used to it.

My first kanji dictionary was Rose-innes - almost pocket sized in a red hard cover. It listed kanji under both old and new forms, with cross references in between. I quickly learned the varients for a bunch of common elements while using it. There are better dictionaries now, but it was marvelous at the time. Then the original Nelson came out. A huge tome that was wonderful for study, but Rose-Innes was still the one I carried around because it was much smaller and more convenient.

There's a reprint on google: http://books.google.com/books?id=c9BDYK … rose-innes

Reply #7 - 2009 April 14, 5:15 am
Umikuma Member
From: Utah Registered: 2007-11-18 Posts: 51

Of course, nowadays I carry around Kabuto on my Windows Mobile phone. Wish I'd had it in Japan all those years ago. See http://gakusoft.com/

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