RPGs.

Nuriko wrote:

Also, I would like to ask everyone what they do for interesting reading material.  When you want to get some reading practice in, where do you usually wind up?

At the public library ... a raft of Japanese books, at all levels.

zodiac wrote:

onafarm wrote:

At the public library ... a raft of Japanese books, at all levels.

Lucky you.

。。。でしょうー！あーあ、うちの図書館はそれほどないや

I never thought finding Japanese reading material was hard - Japanese stuff/people are all over the internet. Other than sites/blogs/comments, there are raw mangas everywhere if you are so inclined. If you want books there is http://www.aozora.gr.jp/

Codexus wrote:

That depends on your current Japanese level. If it's not that high, finding something that you'll be able to enjoy anyway and be motivated to read is not easy.

So true.  When I was first starting out, there was -nothing- my level, obviously.  Eventually, I studied enough vocab to be able to read manga like Yotsuba& and understand like 2/3 of it.  That was enough for me to read all 8 volumes while continue to study vocab.  By the end, I was reading them swifty and understanding almost every word.

But then where to go from there?  Some of the chapters in Yotsuba& were boring, and most of books of the level are boring to me, too.  I tried stepping up a bit and I'm back to 50% comprehension.  Ugh.  That's really not enough to enjoy it -or- learn from it.  So I'm still studying vocab and reading when I can force myself to deal with it.

In fact, I just watched a raw anime and understood about 1/4 of it...  I halfway enjoyed it, but I'd have enjoyed it so much more with subs.  -sigh-

As for reading material on the net...  That's -great- for high-level speakers...  But for anyone who still can't read most words without furigana, it's pretty useless.

wccrawford wrote:

Codexus wrote:

That depends on your current Japanese level. If it's not that high, finding something that you'll be able to enjoy anyway and be motivated to read is not easy.

So true.  When I was first starting out, there was -nothing- my level, obviously.  Eventually, I studied enough vocab to be able to read manga like Yotsuba& and understand like 2/3 of it.  That was enough for me to read all 8 volumes while continue to study vocab.  By the end, I was reading them swifty and understanding almost every word.

But then where to go from there?

I know exactly what you're talking about, it's VERY hard to find good resources for your level. Some people seem to have no care in the world for such things, especially people like mentat, if I remember correctly he has said that he used to listen to newspodcasts etc without understanding any of it, yet still did it. I think Alyks did something similar and tons of other people at this site. I'm very jelous and wish I could also find joy in reading stuff beyond my level, unfortunately I can't

I guess there are two roads you can take:
1. Go with the manga and easy books even though you think they are kinda boring. It might be boring but at least you understand most of it so you probably learn a ton and eventually you'll be ready for more advanced stuff.
2. Force the 50% comprehension book down anyway. It will be boring and slow the first few chapters but after that, you should have learned the most common words for that book and it should get easier.

I've personally just recently found a couple of novels I find to be just perfect for me, about 80-90% comprehension. Challenging while still throughly fun to read.

I also watch London Hearts regularly even though it's way beyond my level. I understand enough to know what each episode is about and I even pick up jokes time and time again, but it's definitely below 50% comprehension for individual sentences. Since it has a lot of japanese subbing going on though, I find it to be a good study tool anyway... and once you've seen a couple of episodes, you kinda get to know the various comedians etc which gives a huge boost to the motivation to watch the episodes.

Last edited by Tobberoth (2009 April 12, 1:22 pm)

Codexus wrote:

What does understanding 50% mean?

Does that mean you know 50% of all the words? 50% of the vocabulary (each unique word counted only once)?

Does that mean you understand perfectly 50% of the sentences? Or maybe that's just a general feeling that you understand 50% of what's going on in the story.

From what I have seen people mean completely different things when they say they understand xx%. One person may claim to understand 80% while another with better comprehension will only say he understands 20%.

It's so subjective that it's completely impossible to compare.

Heh, very good point ^^ I see quite often that people consider themselves good enough to understand 50%+ just because it's an anime or TV show where they can see expressions etc.

Personally, I go with some sort of feeling I guess. I say that if I read a complicated academic paper in English, I still understand 100%. That doesn't mean I can define every single word used but there's no way I'll ever wonder what a sentence or even a part of a sentence means. At 80-90%, I'd say I understand enough to understand what is going on in any situation, on any page in a book etc, but I might not always be sure what a sentence means. Not that I don't understand anything in the sentence, just that I might not feel I got a good grasp of what was implied by it.

So really, when I claim I understand 20% of something, I mean I understand quite a lot. I'm personally not measuring my understanding of individual words or sentences but on how easily I can follow what's going on in the book. I'm WAY harsher when it comes to anime, movies and dramas etc because I don't count anything I realized because of expressions, tone of voice and well.. anything that one understands because of the actual medium.

That's it.
Focus on the good parts. Don't let the bad parts spoil your fun. If you focus on the parts you can understand and forget the rest, you'll always be getting material of "your level".

It is like a jigsaw. In the beginning you have only a few pieces and only after some time you get to see the full picture. The are the steps:

1) Search for a piece along the edges of what you have already built;
2) When you find it, put it in its place;
3) Go to step one.

There is also the question if you'll understand the bad parts if you study. I'm skeptical about the study portion of the classroom method.

yukamina wrote:

mentat_kgs wrote:

That's it.
Focus on the good parts. Don't let the bad parts spoil your fun. If you focus on the parts you can understand and forget the rest, you'll always be getting material of "your level".

The question is whether you'll understand the bad parts just by watching lots.

Definitely not. But watching the bad parts will make learning stuff from those bad parts easier later. It's easier to learn a word you have been exposed to a lot, regardless whether you understood it or not.

yukamina wrote:

Tobberoth wrote:

yukamina wrote:

The question is whether you'll understand the bad parts just by watching lots.

Definitely not. But watching the bad parts will make learning stuff from those bad parts easier later. It's easier to learn a word you have been exposed to a lot, regardless whether you understood it or not.

Yeah, I get that. That works if you can clearly identify a word, and then hear it over and over. But a lot of the time, it's just a blur. If I don't even know what sounds came out of their mouths, I'm not going to even know if they say the same thing again.

Well yes, but first of all it's quite easy to hear what they are saying in a lot of situations if you're good enough at the kind of Japanese they are talking. I'm not accustomed to news-style Japanese at all so when I listen to a newscast or something, I have to listen to it over and over to make most of it out.

With something like London Hearts though, I've seen so many episodes now that it's really not all that hard to hear what they are saying, I just don't know the words yet.

I'll learn it faster if I just look it up. Then I'll notice it right away when I hear/see it again, which will make the input more meaningful.