I wouldn't call that on'yomi and kun'yomi, it's obviously ateji. You can't learn to pronounce ateji, you just have to be exposed to it.

kfmfe04 wrote:

Tobberoth wrote:

I wouldn't call that on'yomi and kun'yomi, it's obviously ateji. You can't learn to pronounce ateji, you just have to be exposed to it.

That's right!  For intermediate-advanced students, they know about ateji.

But for those starting out, don't get the impression that if you go through RTK1-3, then you are done.  It will certainly help a lot, but there is still a lot of work to go...

Ah yes, I see what you mean. That's why I'm semi-critical of all techniques to learn readings except my own: Pure context. Learning an on'yomi for each kanji is useful but there's so many people who seem to think that if you memorize readings, you're fine afterwards. You're not. The only way to know 100% how to pronounce a word is to know the word and thus the readings.

Yeah, #1 isn't really in the same league of difficulty as the others, is it?
An ateji animal kanji that I really like, but is perhaps too well-known to be on that list (despite 山羊) is 熊猫.  You can look it up if you don't know it (don't want to spoil the fun of guessing!)  It's really fitting somehow.

snallygaster wrote:

Yeah, #1 isn't really in the same league of difficulty as the others, is it?
An ateji animal kanji that I really like, but is perhaps too well-known to be on that list (despite 山羊) is 熊猫.  You can look it up if you don't know it (don't want to spoil the fun of guessing!)  It's really fitting somehow.

Chinese kids often joke around about whether the correct word is 熊猫 or 猫熊。

Logically, I would expect it to be 猫熊 but the correct word is 熊猫。Of course, in language, usage trumps logic.  Then again, I don't know much about taxonomy, so who knows what the "proper" word should be?  I guess that's what makes that word a topic of conversation amongst people who pay attention to these things...

Given the cases above, I would not be surprised at all if the Japanese write 熊猫 and read it as パンダ。

Last edited by kfmfe04 (2009 March 23, 10:09 am)

I bet you they learned those reading just because they were exposed to them. It's nothing special really.

I was wondering if these ten technically count as 当て字 - the answers were very interesting.  当て字 actually means something very specific.  If you don't want to or can't read the rest, they basically say that the words are closer to 外来語 than to 当て字。

I think these are generally called 熟字訓 (or 義訓) aren't they? 外来語 being a type of 熟字訓 with foreign phonetic readings. Like 今日, which ignore the readings entirely and use the kanji for its meaning only, while the a native Japanese or foreign (or whatever) word is used as the reading. I think 熟字訓 is considered a type of 当て字 in broad sense of the word, even though it's not an ateji like 寿司.

Pangolin wrote:

I was wondering if these ten technically count as 当て字 - the answers were very interesting.  当て字 actually means something very specific.  If you don't want to or can't read the rest, they basically say that the words are closer to 外来語 than to 当て字。

I think these are generally called 熟字訓 (or 義訓) aren't they? 外来語 being a type of 熟字訓 with foreign phonetic readings. Like 今日, which ignore the readings entirely and use the kanji for its meaning only, while the a native Japanese or foreign (or whatever) word is used as the reading. I think 熟字訓 is considered a type of 当て字 in broad sense of the word, even though it's not an ateji like 寿司.

In a strict sense, 当て字 is the complete opposite of 熟字訓 and the words at the top of this thread are examples of 熟字訓, not 当て字, but Japanese learners and natives alike (incorrectly) use the word 当て字 to refer to 熟字訓 all the time.
外来語 is the borrowing of foreign words for use in Japanese and really has almost nothing to do with either term.  It is definitely not a subset of 熟字訓.

kfmfe04 wrote:

Readings of 九十九 「つくも」 大和 「やまと」 and 八百屋 「やおや」always made me pause and ponder.  It is well explained here.

八百屋 is actually just regular 熟語 using uncommon readings:

八 - や[っつ] (訓読み)
百 - ほ→お (訓読み)
屋 - や (音読み)

Smackle, in the "Ateji 当て字 consisting of numbers" thread, noted that the correct term for numbers representing words is:  語呂合わせ 「ごろあわせ」

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Here is our updated list of reading categories:

熟語 音読み 「電車=でんしゃ」 Chinese-like readings
  四字熟語 (usually 音読み)　「自由自在=じゆうじざい」 proverbs, often from Chinese
  当て字 (usually 音読み derived)　「亜米利加=アメリカ」 Kanji usually picked for sounds

熟語 訓読み 「山芋=やまいも」 Japanese and other foreign/non-Chinese readings
  外来語 (usually カタカナ)　「赤鶴=フラミンゴ」 foreign sounds assigned to meaningful Kanji
  熟字訓 (unusual 訓読み)　「大和=やまと」 cannot/hard to attribute kana to each Kanji

語呂合わせ (訓読み・音読み・外来語 of numerals) 「093=おくさん=奥さん」
  sounds from numerals used to represent word readings

Last edited by kfmfe04 (2009 March 24, 3:31 am)

nac_est wrote:

kfmfe04 wrote:

Smackle, in the "Ateji 当て字 consisting of numbers" thread, noted that the correct term for numbers representing words is:  語呂合わせ 「ごろあわせ」

Yes, but as far as I know the term 語呂合わせ is not restricted to numbers. It refers to any pun or word play.

Thanks for your comment.

I stand corrected.  According to Wiki, there are 専門用語 that fall under 語呂合わせ.

For example, to memorize hard-to-write Kanji:
貝 貝 女 木 →櫻（桜の正字）
2階（貝）の女が気（木）にかかる

It seems that the common thread for 語呂合わせ is the use of mnemonics/stores to abbreviate, often to aid in the memorization of dates, special terms, Kanji, lists of items, etc...  (must sound familiar to RevTK users).

The use of 語呂合わせ for pun and wordplay appears to be more common for numerals.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

熟語 音読み 「電車=でんしゃ」 Chinese-like readings
  四字熟語 (usually 音読み)　「自由自在=じゆうじざい」 proverbs, often from Chinese
  当て字 (usually 音読み derived)　「亜米利加=アメリカ」 Kanji usually picked for sounds

熟語 訓読み 「山芋=やまいも」 Japanese and other foreign/non-Chinese readings
  外来語 (usually カタカナ)　「赤鶴=フラミンゴ」 foreign sounds assigned to meaningful Kanji
  熟字訓 (unusual 訓読み)　「大和=やまと」 cannot/hard to attribute kana to each Kanji

語呂合わせ (訓読み・音読み・外来語 of numerals & special terms) 「093=おくさん=奥さん」
  sounds/mnemonics used to represent word readings - good for memorization