musigny wrote:

You are fluent when you can hold the same conversations you can now in your native language in Japanese readily and effortlessly. Your Japanese will flow effortlessly and be polished.

By this definition, my level of fluent Japanese could be (and is very likely) different from yours.

To illustrate: I am the only member of my immediate family to go to college. I have always been an avid reader of fiction and nonfiction alike, something that already gave me a linguistic edge over my family members. And it doesn't stop there - I continued my studies on through graduate school, learned a foreign language, expatriated, traveled extensively, etc. In other words, I have had many experiences they have not, and as a result, I repeatedly have conversations with my family nowadays where I am stopped midway through a sentence so that they can complain - "ya'know, I really don't unnerstan' what yur sayin.'"

I mean, nothing against my family - they aren't stupid. Just honest, salt-of-the-earth kind of people where education can be somewhat....limited, at times.

So, basically, the conversations I can have now in English exceed the ones my own family can have. Does that mean I need to work harder than they to become fluent in Japanese (since they have a lower benchmark to achieve)?

I think I can see what you're trying to say, but I also think your definition needs a little polishing before becoming categorical.

Ben_Nielson wrote:

kazelee wrote:

Speaking of Anal, if I see "Anyways" one more time I might just blow! LOL.

I have a real bad habit of overusing that word.  In written and spoken English.  And Japanese for that matter...

Sorry to irritate. 

nest0r wrote:

Irregardless

Classic!

'Anyways,' 'irregardless,' 'ain't,'....

Language is a malleable, evolving entity. Think about it. Most of the words we use nowadays were probably considered 'incorrect' at some point in time. Ignore convention and it'll get used enough so that it becomes correct.

Don't get your panties in such a wad.

musigny wrote:

tokyostyle wrote:

You must have misunderstood the sentence then.  There's one comma missing, but otherwise it is correct as-is.  (Which is a separate issue from the lack of quality.)

Incorrect. Run it by your High School English teacher. If you don't like what he says, use some intelligent quip like telling him it's "crap". At any rate, it's food for thought. Certainly one can be fluent but not native; but the reverse is evidently true as well.

How ironic, you've used a semicolon and a coordinating conjunction to connect your final two clauses! Tsk tsk, ho hum.

Ben_Nielson wrote:

Anyways is a recognized colloquialism.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anyways
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define. … ;dict=CALD

So is ain't - http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ain%27t

They may be recognized, that doesn't I have to like it. To me it sounds unpolished and unprofessional to use anyways or ain't, but that's just my opinion. It ranks up there with when incorrect usage of your/you're. Wow. This thread has so many tangents I'm losing track. Shouldn't we be studying?

EnjukuBlack wrote:

'Anyways,' 'irregardless,' 'ain't,'....

Language is a malleable, evolving entity. Think about it. Most of the words we use nowadays were probably considered 'incorrect' at some point in time. Ignore convention and it'll get used enough so that it becomes correct.

Don't get your panties in such a wad.

What's that you see coming at you in you're periphial vision. Supposably it's my keyboard that I tried to intentionally throw; at your head while you was righting that post. I ain't saying that can't dodge it. Juss, irregardless of what you do, that thing is gone hit. It's Mark, anyways I'm not suprise if you turn out to be a user of "anyways" urself, as you defanitly seems to be deffending him even tho you trying to ack like hes the one who was you babby momma afta all. I think its wierd personoly. I can hear bad grammer and not care but reading it is hell. Their I sed it.

Pleez use this occassion to reflect on you're previous statement.

musigny wrote:

nest0r wrote:

How ironic, you've used a semicolon and a coordinating conjunction to connect your final two clauses! Tsk tsk, ho hum.

Thanks for catching the typo on the semicolon. I'm not going come back and tell you it's correct. I'm not going to tell you your statement is "crap" like that's normal language either.

I think he was being sarcastic. LOL

musigny wrote:

Thanks for catching the typo on the semicolon.

A typo is a misspelling caused by two adjacent characters being typed in reversed order or by a character being replaced by another character adjacent to it on the keyboard, not an incorrectly-inserted word or generalized error through inattention.

~J, who can't resist

[url/] http://www.language.ca/display_page.asp?page_id=439[url]The top item in each column (reading, writing, speaking, listening) will open a pdf of descriptors for ESL proficiency. (Yeah I know it's not Japanese)
Any discussion of vague terms like "fluency" without concrete descriptors like this is just a waste of breath, IMO.

after 840 hours of class, excl. kanji, according to the european language portfolio (ELP) in any language (Russian, English, German, Finnish)
you have mastered this level:

"I can present a clear, smoothly-flowing description or argument in a style appropriate to the context and with an effective logical structure which helps the recipient to notice and remember significant points."

http://europass.cedefop.europa.eu/Langu … entGrid/en

why not master japanese in 840 hours + xxxx hours for all the kanjis you like and need to know?

Welcome to the joke, EnjukuBlack, I'm glad you could join us

~J

Last edited by woodwojr (2009 February 15, 5:23 pm)

Fluency doesn't have much to do with your own language... why would it? As a benchmark, I sort of see what's being said, but languages can be completely separated from each other so let's do that.

How long does it take? I have no idea. Each person is different. A kid thrown into elementary school or JHS will be pretty much fluent in a few years. By necessity, lack of his own language, etc. An adult studying at school in said country has an advantage and will likely be pretty confident in a few years, but fluent? I dunno.

I reckon fluency is a point in which you understand the people around you (TV, people near you, etc) and can reproduce something you've heard using the exact same language without thinking about it. Things you think can be said with ease, using similar language a native would use to say the same thing. For nearly any common topic.

Personally, I am no where near this level. I've been in Japan almost 3 years. I'm conversational and I can say what I want to say, but I wouldn't use the language a native uses. And if I'm repeating what someone said, often times I'm forced to dumb it down to my level. I understood what they said but in reproducing it, it comes out in my own language. If I'm watching TV, I mostly get what's going on, but not enough to enjoy owarai, for example. And, I (fingers crossed) passed 2kyu this year.

Am I satisfied? No. Am I studying every day? No. I'm comfortable now. I hope to achieve a higher level but for now it's just through living here and speaking every day. I'll hit the books again, but that's not the only way to learn.

Sometimes you just need to get the muscles in your face to get used to speaking a language.

Last edited by Jawful (2009 February 15, 6:23 pm)

EnjukuBlack wrote:

Sh!t, half of kazelee's posts are garbled nonsense. It's next to impossible to determine if he's joking or just an idiot.

I believe I read in another thread he was sleep-deprived, has a glass in his hand at noon(assuming an exquisite alcoholic drink), and was typing with his hands and feet at the same time.

If so, we have nothing to worry about...or do we? 

Edit: I also realized that kazelee is a 6'2" guy so I couldn't stop lauging when I imagined a guy that tall sitting down at a computer typing with one hand and two feet while drinking a glass of champagne with the other hand.

Props to Kazelee for making my day

Last edited by theasianpleaser (2009 February 15, 8:34 pm)