woodwojr wrote:

... I do remember an individual in my class getting told that he was using more kanji than the Japanese do ("knock it off" implied, but it was a native teacher with native-level indirectness ).

And rightly so. He was writing Japanese, not Chinese. The equivalent would be making every other word in his English some big latin compound. Or maybe a better example would just be writing his English in all capital letters. Writing usually-kana words in kanji serves to emphasize them or otherwise affect the flavor of one's writing (for example by making it more formal, which becomes odd if you're otherwise not writing a formal text).

NightSky wrote:

stehr wrote:

However, it's my opinion that a newbie would be better off learning 1000+ characters and failing, rather than learn 1000 words of broken Japanese that they'll never use (or identify).

How on earth does that make any sense? If you don't live in Japan, you have a choice of knowing 1000 keywords for symbols you will never use or see (and if you did see them, still couldn't read) or knowing enough vocabulary that you could probably make yourself understood for simple basic things if an opportunity did ever arise?

One possible reason:

The person who fails Japanese = typical anime fan(I won't go into a detailed description of 'typical')

Anime fan = watching anime

Anime = occasional use of kanji(usually in the background for places etc.)

Occasional use of kanji = opportunity to expand from just watching English subtitles

Another possible reason:

Failed person in question has English speaking Japanese boyfriend/girlfriend

Write some kanji for "bonus" points with their respective Japanese partner

Last edited by theasianpleaser (2009 February 05, 8:54 pm)

Woodowjr got a point: one person says they have "learned" hundreds of kanji in mere weeks, when what they really mean is "learned to remember the meaning and writing of the characters (to prepare for further study according to Heisig's approach)". The other person who does not know about the rationale for the method may be irritated by the claim. Since we tend to identify a lot with those things we spend a lot of time with, it's a clash of Japanese learner's egos

Perhaps a better way to introduce the method to others is to be honest and say that you have learned to remember the meaning and writing of 2000+ characters with the "Heisig method". Until you can read yourself the most common kanji, you're probably better off only talking about the value of mnemonics and element based approach to remembering the writing (especially for high stroke-count characters), as well as the advantages of recognizing a wide range of characters (learning whatever vocabulary you fancy regardless of frequency, finding your way around when you're in Japan, learning words on the go faster since the kanji is already down..).

esgrove wrote:

One day we were having a conversation that got around to the subject of studying Japanese, and I mentioned that kanji was actually my strong point in the language (due mostly to RtK and my tendency do 80% of my Japanese practice by reading), and she had this to say:

"That's great. I know a few foreigners who seem to think that learning the meaning of a kanji is important. They're so stupid. Even I don't know the meaning of most kanji. They don't have any meaning. Some people have such crazy ways to study."

I realized that she was talking about the Heisig method.

Perhaps she wasn't thinking of Heisig but of people who say the best way to study kanji is by learning traditional etymology.  That's one of the digs against using Heisig that I've heard--some people dislike the idea of learning "sunglasses" or "Mr. T" or "teepee" or "staple gun" because it is not the traditional "meaning" of those primitives.    It's my understanding that many Japanese don't know the traditional Chinese etymology of kanji but they seem to learn them just fine...    So maybe that is what she was referring to.

Nah, I bet there are japanese 10yo who excel in kanji. All they have to do is try harder than their fellows. But yes, if you wait for school, you'll take forever to learn them. But then this would be the same for math, geography and every other subject school teaches you.

amthomas wrote:

So, when someone tells me that Heisig is useless, or that X other method is "way better", I listen, take note of the thing that they recommend so that I can investigate it later and decide if it would *also* work for me, politely disagree with them about the usefulness of the method, and then carry on with my *own* style of studying.

(#^_^#)

your post is pretty wise:P thanks.
You guys complain about other Japanese learners who say bad annoying things to you, but I can't find any Japanese learner around O_o! I wish for an a****le but serious Japanese learner! Let him/her say whatever he/she wants, but someone traveling with you in the same trip is cool, especially a long one
About Heisig method, as amthomas said, everyone does whatever he/she wants, right?
And that girl who used to be () your friend is VERY jealous!

Last edited by undead_saif (2009 February 06, 9:02 am)

Jeromin wrote:

When I was a student in Florida ( back in the last millennium ) I took a core curriculum French class and was accused of being brown nosed, for not hiding my effort and enthusiasm. The accusation sounded like a dire warning of imminent social ostracism, were I to not mend my ways.

Our culture enshrines mediocrity and boredom, and has a variety of subtle and not-so-subtle mechanisms for punishing intrinsically motivated passion.

GoodSirJava wrote:

Jeromin wrote:

When I was a student in Florida ( back in the last millennium ) I took a core curriculum French class and was accused of being brown nosed, for not hiding my effort and enthusiasm. The accusation sounded like a dire warning of imminent social ostracism, were I to not mend my ways.

Our culture enshrines mediocrity and boredom, and has a variety of subtle and not-so-subtle mechanisms for punishing intrinsically motivated passion.

Kan wi oru suinku afu ei kiiwo-do sato suisu imeji buringusu appu.

Deviation from the mean is dangerous. It creates fear and lack of trust. Stay with the mean. Be part of the mean. Become dependent on the mean. The mean is your safety harness in any situation. But be warned, the mean doesn't really give a @#%# about you.

kazelee wrote:

GoodSirJava wrote:

Jeromin wrote:

When I was a student in Florida ( back in the last millennium ) I took a core curriculum French class and was accused of being brown nosed, for not hiding my effort and enthusiasm. The accusation sounded like a dire warning of imminent social ostracism, were I to not mend my ways.

Our culture enshrines mediocrity and boredom, and has a variety of subtle and not-so-subtle mechanisms for punishing intrinsically motivated passion.

Kan wi oru suinku afu ei kiiwo-do sato suisu imeji buringusu appu.

Deviation from the mean is dangerous. It creates fear and lack of trust. Stay with the mean. Be part of the mean. Become dependent on the mean. The mean is your safety harness in any situation. But be warned, the mean doesn't really give a @#%# about you.

Agreed. Well I was, as I said, young and arrogant. I'm just as enthusiastic now when studying something I love, but far more careful in not antagonizing others. I hope to learn more from the Japanese though: I'm still a somewhat abrasive Spaniard.

J

RTK is an interesting method and a very effective tool for what it does.

As a tool - it's a hammer.  It's not a screwdriver or an awl or whatever.  Once you learn the keywords and everything - then you have to go and learn the language, but what an amazing grounding you get.  I wish I had this when I was first studying Japanese.

I can speak a little bit, but six months ago I knew a few random Kanji by site and only in context (I could tell what was 林檎 but only when it was on a box of apples, and 梅 and 海 were only distinguishable if I saw the former on a onigiri).

I have made pretty slow progress as I haven't really devoted myself as much as I'd like, but I'm at about 800 Kanji at the 4 month mark.  It's not a race for me - I intend to remember this stuff.  About 11000 reviews total, 81% correct on mature cards, 70% on young cards.  I review almost every day and usually have between 50-100 cards to review - a pretty easy task.

However, it's changed how I view and remember things - and I can write Kanji by hand.  I was actually showing a couple Japanese people last week, and they were shocked I could write complicated Kanji (like 感じ, no pun intended, when we were talking about the feel of something).  Both speak English - and one is a translator.  She asked me if I also understood the elements of a Kanji, like 心 in 感じ and that sort of thing.  In college, I never really learned that stuff properly.  Now, I can't help but know what 心 means and it's easy to tell apart similar Kanji that before were easily confused.

Anyways - whatever works.  In reality, though, it is easier to recognize 林檎 than write it - which a lot of Japanese might have trouble doing.  But if you know how to write it, you can't help but recognize it and you won't confuse it with anything else.

I haven't really experienced any open criticism so far but I am fairly careful about when I do talk about Heisig and also I am pretty clear on just what the system does for me, which in my opinion, is remove the headstart that someone who is Chinese or Korean (albeit to a lesser extent) has when learning Japanese. 

One of my friends here asked about how I learned so much kanji since my kanji reading writing ability far outranked my other Japanese abilities.  I told him about Heisig and he thought it sounded interesting, he'd been a Japanese major in college and went through the JOYO kanji the usual way.  He then told two other people about the fact that I was doing Heisig,  one a friend from back home who is doing Japanese as a major; she said that her classmates all know of Heisig and don't think much of it.  The other person he told was his Japanese girlfriend.

Her reply, "umhmmm, thats what most Japanese kids do to make it through high school kanji classes"  She said they make up stories for the harder kanji that they rarely see and probably only will ever have to write during their exams from highschool. 

I was surprised to hear that, having the impression that what the people who do the Heisig method are doing is kinda out there in left field as far as language learning goes, but it works so why not.  But, it works, so why not, no matter if you're someone who is learning Japanese as a second language or some kid trying to get into　東大 and learning all the 文系 stuff for an entrance exam.  Anyway, that's the conclusion I came to.

Yes, this is called 語呂合わせ as well. Here are some examples from Wikipedia.

士 フ エ 一 吋→壽(寿の正字)
さむらいの笛は1インチ

金 王 哉 → 鐵(鉄の正字)
鐵は金(かね)の王なる哉(かな)

貝 貝 女 木 →櫻(桜の正字)
2階(貝)の女が気(木)にかかる

糸 糸 言 心→戀(恋の正字)
愛(いと)し愛しと言う心

There are also books such as
http://www.amazon.co.jp/書け … 4827550603

Last edited by Smackle (2009 April 05, 1:29 pm)

I've experienced quite a bit of discrimination for using Heisig. Either people don't believe you really know as many kanji as you say you do or, once you explain the system to you, they tell you that it's useless because you don't know the readings for the kanji.

I find it's best to just not care about it. If someone truly wants to learn a language, they'll be open-minded to many different methods. There's nothing wrong with being skeptical, but if they put you down for using a method, it's really just their loss.