Don't try to figure out how the kanji relate to each other in a jukugo based on the Heisig keywords. The keywords are keywords, not definitions. You should get yourself a decent kanji dictionary (even KANJIDIC would be an improvement) if you want to delve into how jukugo are put together (which is interesting but not mandatory knowledge).

Mnemonics are a bad idea. Jukugo do fit together in a way that is logical (Looking at my 漢字検定 book there seem to be 11 possible ways in which the kanji could relate to each other, so don't expect them to act just like English morphemes.). Why make up crap involving the Matrix when you could just use the ACTUAL "story". Check out the 構成 functions in some of the DS kanji learning software.

-addendum-
Taking your 遠慮 jukugo for example, the relationship is of the meaning "to consider the distant (time)" (遠くを慮る in Japanese). In other words not just living for the moment, but thinking what the future will bring. If you didn't 遠慮 and just did whatever you wanted, there would be repercussions later on.

Last edited by Jarvik7 (2009 February 04, 7:50 pm)

Maybe it would be good to learn a few words for each kanji to get a feel for the real meaning. Then you'll be able to see the connections better because you'll have more to work with.
伝統　might be easier to understand when you see how 伝 is used in these words : 伝える to convey/transmit)　言い伝え(tradition)　伝説(legend/tradition)

I feel that the more you listen a word, the easier is to remember it. 伝説 and 絶対 are very easy, for instance.

MeisterLlama wrote:

I find that it's hard to actually learn words, even if I know their kanji.  I guess some words are easy, like when there is only one Kanji, or the meanings remain close.  For example, お祝い, 課長, and even sort of abstract ones like 自由, I can easily produce the keywords.  Other words, though, like 伝統的 (transmit + govern = traditional?!), 遠慮 (far + prudence = restraint?!), and 絶対 (discontinue + vis-a-vis = absolutely?!) are really hard to remember because their keywords have absolutely no connection.

I guess I could make some sort pneumonic from the keywords, but that seems like a ridiculous recursive process.  Right now I'm just doing rote memorization.  How do you guys learn words?

Another things that helps is knowing multiple meanings for the words/kanji in question.

For example 遠慮 = restraint or reserved (distant+ prudence).

伝統的 goes a little futher.

伝= tradition, method, convey
統= overall, govern
的= -like, target

Tradition overall -like = traditional.

They make sense when you learn more/look at the individual parts deeper.

Also, like what been previously said, (for memory) hearing the words often and aiming for rapid recall will do you good.

Last edited by kazelee (2009 February 05, 4:48 am)

Jarvik7 wrote:

Don't try to figure out how the kanji relate to each other in a jukugo based on the Heisig keywords. The keywords are keywords, not definitions.

This is a good point. Many (perhaps even most) of the kanji have an array of nuanced meanings that don't fit nicely into a single keyword. Take 伝, for example. One of its meanings is transmit, but it can also mean to (walk) along, to follow, and, most importantly for 伝統的, legend or tradition.

As you can see, you wouldn't get all this from Heisig's single keyword of 'transmit.'

Take Jarvik7's advice and get a decent kanji dictionary that will show you what all these nuanced meanings are. I think you'll start to see the compound words making more sense if you do so.

Jarvik7 wrote:

Mnemonics are a bad idea. Jukugo do fit together in a way that is logical (Looking at my 漢字検定 book there seem to be 11 possible ways in which the kanji could relate to each other, so don't expect them to act just like English morphemes.).

I agree. Even though I started learning kanji and vocab the more traditional way, this was something that was somewhat of an epiphany for me when I started using the kanji kentei STEP books to study kanji and vocab.

One part of the kanji kentei (at higher levels) asks you to define how the two characters in a compound are working together to create the meaning of the word. Some examples would be: the two have like meanings, and reinforce one another (like 時期); the two have opposite meanings that combine (like 多少); one character negates the other (like 無限); one character adds its meaning to the other (like 料理); the characters are completely unrelated and chosen for their reading only (ateji, like 煙草); and so on.

With this in mind, all of your examples (絶対、遠慮、伝統的) make very logical sense, but only if you know all the varied meanings of each character and how they relate to one another.

kazelee wrote:

Jarvik7 wrote:

kazelee wrote:

Another things that helps is knowing multiple meanings for the words/kanji in question.

For example 遠慮 = restraint or reserved (distant+ prudence). A reserved person is more "prudent" and/or keeps themselves at more of a "distance."

One problem with this is that 遠慮 isn't an adjective and can't be used like that. Think of it as meaning "hold back". You can't say that someone is a "hold back" person to mean that they are reserved. Again, why make up mnemonics (especially ones that make you diverge from what the word means) when there is already the correct 構成 in existence (see my previous post).

I'm not trying to making up a mnemonic so much as give an example of how the characters relate to the meaning. So the usage of the example isn't really all that important. It can be reworked, and by trying to rework it over until you find something that makes sense, it helps solidify the meaning.

but the characters don't relate in the way you wrote either...

I guess I already said everything I thought in the first comment, but I think mnemonics are fine as long as you're doing your best to allow them to fall away, and you're using them as superficial tools to get the word, as it's presented and used in the sentence, in your head. Naturally you won't need them as much once you're far along, and you'll probably be better off using more nuanced, authentic approaches at that point. Personally, I've got all sorts of geeky fantasies about kanji etymologies and stuff I intend to study.

Jarvik7 wrote:

kazelee wrote:

Jarvik7 wrote:

but the characters don't relate in the way you wrote either...

I'm sure there is some book where their relations are perfectly outlined out there somewhere, but I just make examples based on what I have to go on.

Then don't claim that you aren't making up a mnemonic

I'm focusing on seeing how the kanji come together to make the meaning. It is possible to do this without specifically being told x+y=z.

I made up an example to illustrate how they "could" go together to form the meaning, not as as an aid to help remember. I'm simply illustrating that sometimes to get the meaning you gotta look at the meanings deeper.

Jarvik7 wrote:

That's like saying that 遠慮 is read as とおおもんぱ, just because you don't need to be told x+y=z. Things have meanings that are set and you can't just choose your own.

I was going to respond to this sarcastically. But I have to ask... do you seriously believe that (when it comes to personal understanding especially)?

The Heisig keywords should not be used at all when attempting to learn the meaning of Japanese words. You need to start from scratch, look at how the word is used, look at various dictionary entries and come up with your own conclusion for what it means.

You seem to have missed the part that said "making up your own stuff".

構成 is an aspect of 熟語 just as the reading and meaning are aspects. I suppose the meaning of a word would be easy to understand if you just arbitrarily defined it by yourself...

Last edited by Jarvik7 (2009 February 05, 2:24 am)

kazelee wrote:

Jarvik7 wrote:

You seem to have missed the part that said "making up your own stuff".

Am I making things up? Or just reaching the same conclusions through a different method?

Also, you seemed to have avoided answering my previous question. Do you seriously believe what you said about x+y?

Yes, I do believe that you can't just make stuff up and then claim that it's correct. 構成 are just as rigidly set as the reading.