I don't think there's too much of a reason for individual vocab cards simply because sentences are much more effective.

For your second question, try it and see if you think it's worth the time and effort.

playadom wrote:

Some of the sentences in KO2001 are i+2 or i+3, not i+1. It might be a little tricky using a single sentence for all of these. I would only consider making individual vocab cards for vocab that I don't know that appears in early sentences. Perhaps I could suspend them whenever they come up after I encounter them in the book.

If you don't like the length, then split up the sentences or don't use KO. Also, learning multiple words is a matter of memory and how much work you're willing to put into a sentence. As long as you can understand all the words in a sentence, you'll be fine.

Part of the reason we use sentences is specifically so that we can learn them in the context of a sentence, so that we get used to the words they're used with (collocations). There's a lot more benefit to learning a word with the sentence over learning them on their own.

Last edited by alyks (2009 January 16, 11:44 pm)

My recommendation: Use active recall/dictation (kana/audio-->kanji/meaning) vocabulary words from KO2001, with pictures and slices of sentences for context and usage; and use full passive recognition (kanji/picture-->audio/kana/meaning) sentences from iKnow for reinforcement and speaking practice. I think it's an amazing combination, but that recent project started by Nukemarine, et al, might have rendered it obsolete.

hehe, It does sound intense and overly complicated, in retrospect. Perhaps you should just do that other iKnow/KO project. ;p Especially since I've not talked too much about this method since I'm waiting for my cards to 'mature' and gestate in my brain before passing final judgment.

I've lately been advocating a mixture of the two with concern of vocabulary and sentences. It's no better or worse than the other methods mentioned on this thread. It's a matter of what you find works for you.

How I have mine set - up: It's either Text to Speech plus Kana sentences to Kanji (Dictation), however the only part of the sentence I'll dictate is the vocabulary word. The other is Kanji to Pronunciation (Reading) - however, I MUST know how to perfectly pronounce and know what the particular vocabulary word in the sentence must be.

Now others will go for 100% for all words in the sentence. That's equally valid. Some will dictate in their head. Some will just do Kanji to reading. Also equally valid. I just found the above really clicked with me and kept me adding more vocabulary/sentences. And really, that's the most important part, what gets you doing more.

For me, when I did KO and just did sentences, I had vocabulary definitions for upto five words sometimes for sentences (I only added definitions for words I did not reasonably know). That meant upto five different words that I could get wrong in there. However, what will happen with KO (and iKnow) is that those words you don't know (and aren't really concerned with, yet) will come up later as a vocabulary word on their own. As you had passive exposure, those words just get soaked up real fast. Basically, if you're patient, what you don't know yet will come up in time. Just pace yourself. Before the word comes up as vocabulary, you'll know just off the english translation or context, but you're not marking the card wrong for a vocabulary word you don't know yet.

Most important, go for what you find really works for you. If writing down every sentence every review floats your boat, do it. If having photos and audio are a must, do it. If short sentences and 100% on it all are your thing, do it. The particular method will not mean as much after you have 5000 to 10,000 vocabulary words floating around in your head as you scream through Death Note and GTO mangas.

Last edited by Nukemarine (2009 January 17, 1:51 am)

playadom wrote:

Some of the sentences in KO2001 are i+2 or i+3, not i+1. It might be a little tricky using a single sentence for all of these....

Can you explain what you mean with i+1 etc? Are those level related?

Ok Tobberoth, I get it

What I found helps best for me with KO sentences with i+2 or i+3 is to leave the sentence as it is, add extra sentences to handle all of the extra vocab, and let repetition do its thing.

If I'm adding 3 words in a sentence, I'll go to my online dictionaries (usually yahoo and ALC, for expediency), and find short and easy i+1 sentences for each of the new vocab words I'm adding as well. I'll only add one short sentence for each new word, in addition to the KO sentence. If I have problems later on, I'll add an extra sentence. If I keep having problems, I'll keep adding sentences. It's an artificial replication of the effect of seeing a word you're trying to learn "in the wild" and having an "a-ha!" moment.

So if I have sentence with 3 new vocab words, I'll add 4 sentences. The KO sentence in its ungodly entirety + 3 shorter ones. You can break up the KO sentences if you want, but I've gotten in the habit of trying to digest them whole.

One nice thing-- once you get to about the 300-400 mark in KO, it *does* get easier. I'm right around the 400 mark (had to take some time off from KO to work on other stuff), and when I checked my deck, I was at 952 unique kanji. So being "at 400" is kind of deceptive. I've found that the sentences are a lot easier to handle now, although I still tend to add about 30 sentences total for every 15 or so in the book.

Also, keep in mind that not every vocab word is incorporated into the sentences. Bah. For those, you'll have to find other sources. I usually just go with EPWING or online dictionaries.

If you're doing cards with minimal or moderate amounts of new information, and relatively short in length, I think doing just dictation (audio-->kanji) or both ways is best, respectively. The workload for doing both ways really isn't that high, I would even claim it's reduced in the long term, because of the reinforcement. For longer sentences, I'd recommend just doing kanji-->audio.

Last edited by nest0r (2009 January 25, 10:02 pm)

playadom wrote:

Wouldn't doing just dictation ruin my ability to read those kanji?

I do not think so. If you can hear it spoken and write down the correct kanji, then why would you not be able to read them? Being able to produce it often means it has a firmer hold in your mind.

if you are having trouble remembering keywords and stuff you might want to try my RtK iKnow lists that i have been making... just set it to goal mode and go through 1 list in a day.. i got 4 of 200 lists kanji up now (800 kanji total) i'm continuing to add more until i get to the end of the book... i have perfect memory retention on the kanji that i have covered so far... here is the link to the 1st list http://www.iknow.co.jp/lists/41878

I have finished KO books 1 and 2.

I personally went both ways, from reading to kanji and kanji to reading, with the former being first. I used Text Aloud for audio to do this. I write out the words I am not sure of the kanji and sometimes the whole sentences. I also sometimes do shadowing or other things to force myself to reinterpret the sentence.

I think the most important thing is to check your progress. Is it working or not.

The other thing is don't add everyword. Some are really obscure and are not worth learning at this point in your studies. The thing is the grammar and sentences in KO are really babyified and unnatural. As such don't expect your grammar to improve much. So you want to burn through the books to get some quick vocab, then you can start reading real Japanese.

Also be sure to keep up your listening. Hearing these words in natural sentences will help you avoid sounding like a Japanese textbook.

I used two pieces of cardboard when reading the sentences to avoid seeing the furigana and English translation. Try and avoiding reading the often dodgey English translations if you can.

Last edited by thermal (2009 January 28, 5:24 pm)