ファブリス
Administrator
From: Belgium
Registered: 2006-06-14
Posts: 4021
Website
I came accross the japanese word for "cynicism" : 皮肉 pronounced ひにく and I thought the kanji in the compound were strange, and then just by chance I found this website :
http://gogen-allguide.com/
It's very nice, it has a definition but also an explanation of the etymology of the compound words! For example here's 皮肉, the "pelt meat".
Pangolin
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2006-07-23
Posts: 137
Useful site! I came across this a while ago from a chance link whilst trying to find the etymology of 馬鹿 (ばか) - fool/idiot. However, and I suppose it's hardly for me to say, but knowing quite a bit about English etymology, I know there is a fair amount of "folk etymology" going around which is usually fanciful and nearly always false.
I have to say I found some of the etymologies given for words I'd taken as あてじ (Chinese characters assigned to native or loan words for their phonic value only) to seem rather forced. However it seems that the choice of あてじ was often fanciful, or at least some attempt was made to find characters suitable in meaning as well as sound, even if the relationship was far-fetched.
The phonic similarity between ひにく and cynic makes me highly suspicious that this is an English loan word written with あてじ with an elaborate pseudo-etymology back-formed upon it.
I think ばか is the same, except that the word was a loan, I think, from Sanskrit (via Buddhism). The back-formed etymology in this case is some tale about a Chinese emperor being given a horse as a gift, but it was in fact a deer. The emperor's subjects all knew it was a deer but had to pretend (Emperor's New Clothes style) that it was a beautiful horse. I guess the emperor is the fool here!
Still, a VERY useful site which gives you a lot more information about Japanese words than most online resources, and it's cracked a few problems I've had with obscure usages.
Pangolin
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2006-07-23
Posts: 137
ファブリス wrote:
It's interesting also (and somewhat amusing) that the "recent searches" on the left often contain loan words like コスモス or yesterday there was ベ-コン.
Yes, that's kind of hilarious when it's obvious to us that they are just English words written in katakana. Perhaps that's not so obvious when you are Japanese, but I'm kind of surprised.
It shows how things have changed, though. Now loan words are simply written in katakana, whereas in the past elaborate attempts to render them in kanji (あてじ) were made. I suppose this makes it easier for us, but in a way it's a shame.
I suppose you can have fun by making your own あてじ (and try and come up with a pseudo etymology to go with it). To take one of the katakana examples above, how about 米墾 ?
laxxy
Member
Registered: 2006-07-19
Posts: 203
Pangolin wrote:
ファブリス wrote:
It's interesting also (and somewhat amusing) that the "recent searches" on the left often contain loan words like コスモス or yesterday there was ベ-コン.
Yes, that's kind of hilarious when it's obvious to us that they are just English words written in katakana. Perhaps that's not so obvious when you are Japanese, but I'm kind of surprised.
It's not that rare for the real Japanese words to be written in kana too, e.g. Google has
957,000 for りんごを (を to eliminate Chinese results)
859,000 for リンゴを
256,000 for 林檎を
so it may not be quite that surprising.
Pangolin
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2006-07-23
Posts: 137
laxxy wrote:
It's not that rare for the real Japanese words to be written in kana too, e.g. Google has
957,000 for りんごを (を to eliminate Chinese results)
859,000 for リンゴを
256,000 for 林檎を
so it may not be quite that surprising.
I only meant that I was surprised that people would look up English loan words (albeit in katakana) in a Japanese online etymological dictionary. But on second thought, perhaps it makes perfect sense, why not if it works?
The use of katakana for Japanese words is a somewhat different phenomenon. I notice that the names of animals, beyond the very common ones (and these are getting fewer), are now rendered in katakana, even when there are perfectly well known kanji. I've heard complaints about such trends from older-generation Japanese, but they seems irreversible. In fact I think you are considered old-fashioned to use kanji for even something like "crow" (烏) when カラス has become the norm. It's probably the same with plants and perhaps the common use of リンゴ stems from that.
Ironic that we are putting such efforts into remembering kanji while Japanese seem to be busy forgetting them.
laxxy
Member
Registered: 2006-07-19
Posts: 203
Pangolin wrote:
laxxy wrote:
It's not that rare for the real Japanese words to be written in kana too, e.g. Google has
957,000 for りんごを (を to eliminate Chinese results)
859,000 for リンゴを
256,000 for 林檎を
so it may not be quite that surprising.
I only meant that I was surprised that people would look up English loan words (albeit in katakana) in a Japanese online etymological dictionary. But on second thought, perhaps it makes perfect sense, why not if it works?
That, and it might not be that obvious that the word is a loanword, as opposed to a Japanese word written in katakana. (although the ー in ベーコン could serve as an indicator in this example, I guess...)
One other interesting thing I noticed a few times in comics is that they sometimes use kanji to clarify the meanings (i.e. a loanword, presumably the one pronounced, is written as furigana, alongside kanji for the Japanese equivalent).
amthomas
Member
From: Japan
Registered: 2006-06-22
Posts: 104
Pangolin wrote:
I only meant that I was surprised that people would look up English loan words (albeit in katakana) in a Japanese online etymological dictionary.
Well, it *could* be that someone that speaks, say, Russian doesn't know the English word for fried strips of pig meat, and was looking up ベーコン to see why Japanese people decided to use that particular kana word for 'bacon'. Just like an English speaker might look up 'arubaito' in the Japanese etymological dictionary and learn that it is from a German word, originally.
Not everyone studying Japanese speaks English as their first language. (^_^)
-ang