wccrawford wrote:

You're standing in line at a counter and the guy in front of you points at the banana pudding and says "これが食べたい".  You have -no- idea what any part of that means, but you see the clerk put some in a cup for him and hand it to him.

If I may hijack this thread for a moment with a question...

My first guess at a translation for that phrase was "this wants to eat", but obviously from context everyone agrees that it means "I want to eat this".  Why is that the case?  Doesn't が establish a concrete relationship between the subject and the verb at the end of the phrase, making it clear that it is in fact "これ" that wants to eat, not some other implied subject?

kazelee wrote:

"From your understanding," pointing to an object then saying "I want" gets you what you want.

That isn't understanding. That's an assumption. As I showed in an example before, it's an assumption which can lead to very humerous and confusing results. You heard some gibberish and saw an event. You, in your own brain, gives this a cause-effect relationship, which could be completely wrong. Even if it's right, it's a guess that gave a desired result once, you have no idea how or even if it can be applied in other similar situations.

Captain_Thunder wrote:

Doesn't が establish a concrete relationship between the subject and the verb at the end of the phrase, making it clear that it is in fact "これ" that wants to eat, not some other implied subject?

No, が　does not mark the subject.　を　does not mark the object. Japanese grammar is not like the english grammar.

You use the が　here because you are chosing from a list. You want a specific item from a list that is more desirable than all the others. If you were comparing to another specific item, you would be using　は.

Last edited by mentat_kgs (2008 November 13, 5:12 pm)

Captain_Thunder wrote:

wccrawford wrote:

You're standing in line at a counter and the guy in front of you points at the banana pudding and says "これが食べたい".  You have -no- idea what any part of that means, but you see the clerk put some in a cup for him and hand it to him.

If I may hijack this thread for a moment with a question...

My first guess at a translation for that phrase was "this wants to eat", but obviously from context everyone agrees that it means "I want to eat this".  Why is that the case?  Doesn't が establish a concrete relationship between the subject and the verb at the end of the phrase, making it clear that it is in fact "これ" that wants to eat, not some other implied subject?

From a completely grammatical standpoint, Verb plus (where the hell is a plus sign on a Japanese keyboard?!) たい actually functions as an adjective, which is why the formal/long version would be これが食べたいです, while です is the verb in the sentence, not 食べたい。

It's confusing only when you try to look at it based on how you would say it in English - actually giving a direct translation of これが食べたい would be a mess ( "This is wanted to be eaten by me", I suppose)

mentat_kgs wrote:

　です is not the verb. It is the copula that completes the predicate.

I don't quite understand. Would you mind explaining further?

Excuse me "for going off topic"...

how to begin speaking japanese?

First, skip this thread and don't worry that much, it all starts when you open your mouth, that's all. If you don't feel confident, just find a place or someone you can talk to. If you just can't feel confident enough to talk to anyone, start writing what you would want to say. It won't be perfect from the beginning, and that's ok. Just practice and you'll gain confidence, and soon you will feel like sharing your thoughts with someone.

Enjoy.

Captain_Thunder wrote:

My first guess at a translation for that phrase was "this wants to eat", but obviously from context everyone agrees that it means "I want to eat this".  Why is that the case?  Doesn't が establish a concrete relationship between the subject and the verb at the end of the phrase, making it clear that it is in fact "これ" that wants to eat, not some other implied subject?

Since this topic is both derailing and entering confusion, I'll throw a little extra confusion into the mix. Technically, Xが食べたい can mean either "I want to eat X" or "X wants to eat." The majority of the time it will mean "I want to eat X."

If you're talking about a food item, it will be understood that X is what you want to eat as if you are selecting X among a group of other things.

If X is a living thing that is capable of eating, it can be understood as "X wants to eat."

I learned that through a Japanese person correcting me when I said something I obviously wasn't intending to say...

Last edited by PrettyKitty (2008 November 14, 12:03 am)

QuackingShoe wrote:

Edit: Scrapped and rewritten so as not to be so damn confusing and meandering.
Captain_Thunder: たい is essentially used like any other verb, but when the たい verb is transitive, you have the option of replacing を with が (if を is marking a direct object and not something else). This signals greater desire. What's actually going on tends to be pretty clear from context (especially since it's almost always used with your own desire).

You're first explanation was actually much clearer Although I understand this one as well.

I assume you would still consider both to be correct?

Yeah, I would. PrettyKitty and Samesong (except for the です thing) together kindof mentioned the stuff I edited out. I feel it's accurate, but decided it's a little misleading, since it seems to be the only way a lot of textbooks go over the form, to the extent that for around a month after I learned it I didn't think you could use it without が. But in actuality it seems to be used exactly like any other verb except for the optional (if frequent) が swap. (for 食べたい alone, google hits が twice as often as を. Of course, some of the がs are marking the eater, but it's still indicative. を still gets over 2 million though, so it's obviously fairly standard as well).
So I decided I didn't want to get too far into it, largely because I don't really understand, with my grasp of grammar holistically, why you could use を or が here and still essentially mean the same thing. I've actually come to think of it as similar to the modern passive, in that you can say either りんごを食べられました or りんごが食べられました. The first has something other than the apple as it's (generally unspoken) subject, and that subject is actually receiving the action instead of the apple. Known as the Suffering Passive, IE "I suffered the apple being eaten." The eating was done to you, but it's the apple that was actually eaten. Meanwhile the second is a more straightforwardly passive of the English variety, simply saying "The apple was eaten," nothing else implied. The second has supposedly(?) only become acceptable in modern times (possibly due to English). I think of たい as being somewhat similar (in a very general way, not specifically), though I kind of imagine that with たい, the が was originally what you used (since it's a bloody adjective), but that perhaps を has come to be acceptable over time. It could just as easily be the other way around or have always been this way, though - I'm blissfully unaware. Either way, I'd say が shows it is desirable to someone (which I suppose makes the statement stronger), while を states that someone desires it. Edit: Or alternatively, in the same way you can say that in を食べられる, the apple is getting 食べ'd and you're getting られる'd, in を食べたい, the apple is getting the 食べ but you're getting the たい (I mean as far as emphasis and breakdown, the sentence is obviously not passive). While in が食べられる the apple is getting the whole thing, as it is in が食べたい, which makes it much more emphatic. Hahaha, this is such bullshit.
This isn't a solid grammatical opinion, obviously. It's just how everything has come to settle in my head over time. So it's specifically inaccurate, in much the same way that anything I say about English is specifically inaccurate, but I believe it's broadly applicable.

Now, see, dangit, this is exactly the sort of post I was trying to avoid!

Tobberoth: It's entirely unimportant, since it's really just naming convention, but the copula genuinely isn't a verb in Japanese. It's just the copula. It is usable to form a predicate, but predicate doesn't equal verb (and an adjective may also be a predicate in Japanese). I'd reference to something specific, but you can pretty much just type 'japanese copula predicate' in google and go click happy.

Last edited by QuackingShoe (2008 November 14, 7:31 am)

Oh I definitely wouldn't argue with you there. I thought about mentioning the same thing, that it wasn't important, earlier, but decided not to bother. When you started talking about it, though, I figured it was worth mentioning the specifics about it, because I didn't pick up that you were trying to speak on an effective level instead of a literal one. But I agree with your sentiment, especially since I just wrote a post about generalities and 'feels' that horribly abused the accepted linguistic vernacular.

In my opinion...

(Ignoring the purely honorific use of です like with い adjectives.)

"です" is a copula.
"です" is a also copular verb.
"Is" is a copula.
"Is" is also a copular verb.
"Is" and "です" are also "linking verbs" which means they are just there to link the subject to the predicate without indicating any action on the part of the subject.

です isn't the only copula in Japanese. Anything that doesn't perform an action can fall into the category of copular verb. Textbooks tend to not point out any other copula than です.

These are all copulae/linking verbs in English: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_copulae

Some people don't consider copulae to be verbs. I think the idea is that a verb is always an action. If you look sad, you're not really doing anything. If you look at a sign, then you are doing something.

It all depends on what the meaning of the word "is" is...