QuackingShoe wrote:

(You can't say 黒いがなになに, you have to say 黒が. I'm sure you know, but...)

I didn't know and hadn't really thought about it much, thanks.

No, you can understand large parts of a language while still being far from a master. I NEVER use grammar structures I don't feel I understand, the risk of crappy output is enormous. I do use words I have a more vague understanding of, but that's just the odd word here and there. Mostly, I use the Japanese I understand very well when speaking, in a sense, the Japanese I have mastered. The Japanese I don't understand well yet, I keep to my studies.

I have always taken big pride in how creative my Japanese output is and tried to refrain from using the same old sentences over and over... I want to feel like I'm talking in a language in a native way, not that I'm copying sentences I've heard used a lot but don't really understand.

Tobberoth wrote:

No, you can understand large parts of a language while still being far from a master.

NO!? Really!? So how did you learn the correct pronunciation of what little Japanese you speak? Why are there lists of the most common words spoken in any language? Surely these people weren't born with the information already in their brains.

Before you have any sort of mastery you must mimic. That's called learning.

I NEVER use grammar structures I don't feel I understand, the risk of crappy output is enormous.

Who does? Well... excluding me

I do use words I have a more vague understanding of, but that's just the odd word here and there. Mostly, I use the Japanese I understand very well when speaking, in a sense, the Japanese I have mastered. The Japanese I don't understand well yet, I keep to my studies. I have always taken big pride in how creative my Japanese output is and tried to refrain from using the same old sentences over and over... I want to feel like I'm talking in a language in a native way, not that I'm copying sentences I've heard used a lot but don't really understand.

I'm not advocating just turning to a page on some book and spitting out random phrases until they're locked firmly into your brain. Let me illustrate what I mean.

You walk in a dojo and the karate instructor says punch. You've seen a punch before... Maybe in a movie where a bad guy punches a good guy in the face.  So you make a fist (incorrecty), you pull your arm back (totally out of form), and you let one fly. The instructor corrects you. He shows you the proper way to ball your fist, the proper way to chamber your punch, and the proper way to let one fly.

How does he do this? He enters a position. You mimic it. He enters another position. You mimic it again. Do you understand the complete mechanics of the punch at this point? Probably not. You mimic him for a few punches. Then it gets real uncomfortable as you're not yet used to punching like this, and so, you ask, why? He explains. You may or may not fully comprehend his reasoning, but you get back to practicing this punch.

Along comes a bully. You're not quite comfortable in letting loose this punch you've been studying, but the bully makes his intentions known. You let one fly. It's clumsy. It's nothing like what the instructor taught you, this punch. The thing is, you hit the bully square in the soft part of his nose. He runs home crying like a baby.

You didn't "fully" comprehend the mechanics of the punch. You just tried to mimic what you learned from the teacher. You applied the correct action to the situation, even though you didn't "fully" understand.

It it's the same with any other language. Yes, martial arts are languages of the body.

Now I could have simply said, something like, all that matters in communication is being understood, but... I like really like telling stories ^_^

Hashiriya wrote:

now say all that in japanese

Soon....

samesong wrote:

So what?

I see a lot of people saying the same thing you do; if I can't say it perfectly, I'm not going to say it at all. At your level, it might be acceptable; you have a sufficent amount of other ways to express what you want to say. But for a beginner, this mindset will keep them from ever speaking Japanese, and if they do, it will be a very, very, slow start.

After a few weeks of Japanese instruction I decided to try and speak Japanese with a few natives. I remember the first time I tried to express "when I went to the store", I said いつ店に行くました, not knowing the word 時 existed. Did my Japanese sound horrendous and make little to no sense? Yeah. Did I quickly learn from that "mistake" and learn how to use 時 leap-years ahead of everybody else in my class? Definitely.

If you're afraid to make mistakes when speaking and are hesitant to use certain words or grammatical structures, you are going to progress much, much slower than somebody who isn't afraid to hit the ground (again and again) running when trying to speak Japanese.

You don't have to say things perfectly, just don't repeat stuff you've heard somewhere without understanding it. Perfect example: Anime lovers who think that just because they've heard a phrase in anime 10 times, they can use it properly. They can't.

We are talking about different things. You're talking about not being able to express yourself when you need to. In those cases, you don't have a choice and crappy output WILL be outputted because it's needed. I'm talking about when you're sitting around talking to someone in Japanese and you feel you want to mimic that cool grammar structure you heard but didn't actually learn to use.

Tobberoth wrote:

Mimicing a sentence structure you don't understand will often not even get the meaning across.

I know from English that I can understand some really really horrid output from non-native speakers and understand what they want to say just fine.  I've heard others say that Japanese people can do the same thing with their language.

It's important to -try-, even if you fail a lot.  If you wait to you can read everything before you start speaking, you are seriously impairing your study.  You will probably never be fluent like that.

Personally, I'm not to the point that I have enough vocab to even read simple mangas, so I haven't tried to speak at all.  But once I can comfortably read some mangas, I'm going to actively seek people on the net to talk with by email, and then by voice.  It's all coming together faster than I had hoped.

Tobberoth wrote:

the 店員 just looked at him and said "はい" over and over, he didn't understand, he didn't even TRY to understand, he just wanted the foreigner to stay quiet so he could go get the food for us.

All you've proven is that there are jerks worldwide.  You don't think there are people here that do the same thing?  In Quebec, there are many people that will pretend not to speak English just so you'll go away, despite the fact that it's required in school and very nearly required just to live there.  It's not exactly the same situation, but it -is- the same attitude.

Tobberoth wrote:

Some Japanese people don't even understand proper Japanese, simply because it's comming from a foreigner. They suspect they won't understand, so they don't even try.

The same thing exists here.  Ignorance, prejudice, whatever...  It's all the same.  Some people will be that way.

What you're basically saying is:  Sometimes it won't work, so you should never try.

i didn't mean to start a fight haha

It's an interesting fight at least. =P

Semi-related side note: Someone did a mini experiment on the phone. A native Japanese called a few places to ask questions. Introducing himself as "Mike" or some other obviously Western sounding name. He was speaking normally and not any fake Western style accent. Most of the time, the person on the phone suddenly became unable to understand him.

Anyway, carry on...

Maybe they are panicking that the foreigner is going to begin speaking English and they will have to drudge up their dusty English skills, and while they are worrying, they forget to listen.

I've mimicked sentences I guess, but only if I understood them. For example, if I was intending on pointing at some food to ask for it, I was probably going to say これお願いします but if I heard the guy in front of me say これが食べたい and I wasn't sure of myself I would just switch to whatever the native said assuming it's somehow better.

However, in this particular case, I would probably not switch to これが食べたい since I really don't think it's normal to point at something and say, "I want to eat this one." Maybe it's just me, but it sounds like he's making some big decision.

"Do I want to eat this one? That one? The other one? What about that one over there? Aha! This is the one I want to eat! Yes! これが食べたい！"

I'm sure you could learn from repeating something you didn't understand and seeing if you got the reaction you wanted. That's kind of how we learned our first language, isn't it? But I, personally, wouldn't feel comfortable doing it.

Tobberoth wrote:

kazelee wrote:

You didn't "fully" comprehend the mechanics of the punch. You just tried to mimic what you learned from the teacher. You applied the correct action to the situation, even though you didn't "fully" understand.

But you are fully understanding all that matters about a punch: Applying force to someones weak point. That's all you need to know to always throw a punch. Sure, it might not be the fastest or strongest punch ever. Your aim might be slightly off. But it will be a punch.

This is not all you need to know. There are various ways you can injure yourself more than the person you are punching. Much the same, there are ways you can be misunderstood if you don't use a phrase right.

Mimicing a sentence structure you don't understand will often not even get the meaning across. All you know is that in a certain situation, this structure is sometimes used. That doesn't mean that structure makes sense in all of those situations, languages and conversations have way too many variables to take into account.

Yeah, and you can either wait until you've studied for umpteen years to fully understand it, or just use it and correct it as you go along.

Besides, your analogy is similar to samesongs post in that it refers to when you have no choice. You don't WANT to punch him, but you have to. Screw understanding.

My analogy was showing that the person only mimicked the punch.  Whether he had to punch or not should be irrelevant.

He don't have to, though. He chose to. He could let the bully have his way. There are some people who believe this to be the right course of action.The bully was a hypothetical. The person could be in sparring session, or just playing around with friends, or even standing in a room by himself. He won't stop and go, "Oh I don't completely understand the mechanics of this so I won't use it."

He won't sit in front of book for god knows how long trying to understand the why. And even if he does, he can never fully understand it unless he actually punches. And until he gains some sort of mastery of this punch, he is simply mimicing. See instructor; do instructor; ask; adjust.

If I didn't understand something in a conversation, instead of mimicing it and making an ass out of myself, I politely asked what it meant.

Fraidy cat, lol, jk.

And after you ask what it means, you will attempt to say it, correct? You will mimic it, correct? Then you will piece together the meaning with what you are actually saying, correct? And the first time you use it, it won't be 100% correct, correct?

I'll say, once again, I'm not advocating spitting out random phrases like a congenital moron. I don't think anyone is. There is just no need to be so overly cautious.

Real life example.

French guy on xboxlive after I beat him: "Man, you f&^%ed me."
Moi: What.... ohh... you mean I F@#$ed you "UP."
French guy: Yeah, I got f#$%ed up.

Though, the dialog was a bit funny, he didn't feel like an idiot. I didn't think he was one. We even shared a little language exchange as we played together.

Last edited by kazelee (2008 November 13, 3:38 pm)

kazelee wrote:

He won't sit in front of book for god knows how long trying to understand the why. And even if he does, he can never fully understand it unless he actually punches.

To learn to drive you need to know the traffic regulations and how to operate the vehicle but you won't learn to drive until you drive..