thanks for the advice ^_^ i'll keep it in mind... grammar is definitely one of my weak points.... i really got to work on it then..

Personally, I knew VERY few people who can speak decent Japanese who haven't actually been in Japan, which is very unfortunate... but you simply need to talk and use it SO much for output to become good, there really isn't any good way of doing it anywhere else. Safe to say, the fastest and best way to become fluent in basic conversation is to talk Japanese. Do everything you can to find Japanese people to talk to. At first, your speech will be slow and sort of incoherent, but the more you speak, the more words get stuck completely in your active memory and will just come up naturally as you speak.

EDIT: Like I've said in other topics, I also know some people who almost passed JLPT2 yet can't really talk Japanese well even though they lived in Japan simply because:
A. They didn't speak Japanese with their Japanese friends etc in Japan, they spoke English.
B. They didn't have any Japanese friends

Last edited by Tobberoth (2008 November 12, 2:00 am)

I studied for about a year on and off before I came to Japan- my speaking has improved 100x faster living in Japan than living in Australia. Just keep trying- use what you know as much as possible (I don't know how many times I've said "I live close to the train station"). I really hate saying things incorrectly, but incorrectly is better than not at all IMHO- you can figure out the correct way to say it later.

I've figured out the real key for those living in Japan- hang out with people who have worse English than you have Japanese- because then the conversation will be mostly Japanese. It's been said before and it's a good thing to keep in mind- the dominant language is the one most conversation will be held in. Especially when drinking If I know my friend speaks English well, I'm apt to use English when I get lazy, but with the friends I have that don't speak English well, I HAVE to use Japanese.

Suck in as much vocab as you can, but get the basic grammar down too- that was my mistake- I didn't know enough grammar (and verb endings) - so I could only pick out an adjective here or there. I still don't know enough grammar, but studying for the JLPT ３級 has really helped (as well as listening in my Junior High School classes that I teach in).

Speak. I guess that's really what it boils down to.

I think a good way for beginning fluency is to practice a single pattern in a variety of ways, until it becomes automatic to say.  So choose something relatively easy, like ・・・が好きです。

So you just pick one pattern a day, a pattern that you are sure you can make accurately, but one which doesn't come out well.  Then just say it to yourself a million times, occasionally comparing it to an audio model, speak it out loud if you can to get your mouth used to it.  If you have some Japanese friends, try to use that single pattern ad nauseum.

猫が好きです。
チョコが大好きです。
いい天気が好きです。
泳ぐ事が好きです。
黒いが好きですよ。

So the idea is to get patterns to come out of your mouth smoothly and quickly, so you don't have to think about that part of the sentence.  If you practice a pattern a thousand times at once, it will be more beneficial than saying it once a day.  Once you have it practised, then you can drop it into a conversation when you need it.

Last edited by phauna (2008 November 12, 5:08 am)

(You can't say 黒いがなになに, you have to say 黒が. I'm sure you know, but...)

hknamida wrote:

This is what I did with "?なければならない" without realizing it.

Reminds of ol' Pimsleur. 失礼しなければならないんです失礼しなければならないんです失礼しなければならないんです失礼しなければならないんです....

Last edited by QuackingShoe (2008 November 12, 5:26 am)

mentat_kgs wrote:

I have a hunch that speking is tied to listening comprehension, i.e., you can't speak what you can't hear.
Could you write about your listening comprehension?

I'd personally say it's a mutual connection... I mean any line you can say and use in conversation, you will hear instantly and won't even need to think about, it will just sound... natural.

You might want to give shadowing a shot. I feel it's really effective(although it's not that fun). You can work your pronunciation, grammar, vocab, listening, etc all at the same time. Also, you might want to study grammar before your fiance comes. Although she could explain the grammar to you, Tae Kim's is in English, so you can do it by yourself. Personally I'd rather spend time talking about things that are interesting IN Japanese than talk about Japanese(especially grammar) in English. IMO if you work now you can double your knowledge and when your girl comes, you can have a real conversation in Japanese.

You think you have a good conversational Japanese and listening comprehension.
Then, full of confidence, you go to a japanese shop and encounter the first staff member speaking the super-polite language.

The sound you hear is your confidence in your language ability flying screaming out of the nearest window..

[/off-topic]

Sorry! Just had to say that after reading the "listening comprehension"! ^^/

Carry on!

Last edited by alantin (2008 November 12, 11:27 am)

alantin wrote:

Sorry! Just had to say that after reading the "listening comprehension"! ^^/

Carry on!

That was not offtopic. It was totaly ontopic.
But the thing is, there are many degrees of listening comprehension.
If you are completely confident you can listen to polite japanese and understand 100%, there would no be reason to fear how to speak it.

I know there is a lot I cannot understand, a lot I can understand with some effort and only a little that is really natural for me. This last part I know I can speak confidently.

I'm with Tobberoth on this one. You should have no hope whatsoever of speaking what you dont understand well.

@Hashirya
And tv shows, and the news? Can you understand them?

Last edited by mentat_kgs (2008 November 12, 12:01 pm)

mentat_kgs wrote:

alantin wrote:

Sorry! Just had to say that after reading the "listening comprehension"! ^^/

Carry on!

That was not offtopic. It was totaly ontopic.
But the thing is, there are many degrees of listening comprehension.
If you are completely confident you can listen to polite japanese and understand 100%, there would no be reason to fear how to speak it.

LoL
It was something I didn't expect when I first went to Japan and gave a blow to my self confidence at first.
You do get used to it pretty fast though!
It is just something to be aware of. The levels of politeness to that extent are something you don't find in most other languages so it can be something pretty alien.

Yeah.
My time in Japan was the time I really learned the most and fast.
Compared to here.. It's like comparing a hare and a turtle..
And I'm with you guys in that you really can't speak what you don't understand!

Last edited by alantin (2008 November 12, 1:51 pm)

kazelee wrote:

mentat_kgs wrote:

I'm with Tobberoth on this one. You should [shall?] have no hope whatsoever of speaking what you dont understand well.

I wouldn't say that much. I use words I don't understand all the time. And they make sense too. How? Say, you see a tv show where a certain character does x and another character says y. When someone in real life does x you can use y. You then look it up in the dictionary afterwards, though. Children do it all the time... only sans dictionary.

I can vouch for this.  When I was younger, I'd write about "torrid" affairs without knowing what "torrid" meant.  I was parroting phrases I found in books.  Same with "the light coalesced".

I say there's a difference between simply saying a word you don't know, and speaking using grammar and vocabulary you do not understand.

I can take any random noun I don't know and say a sentence with it, that isn't really what mentat_kgs is talking about here I think. If you don't understand として, your sentences using it will make zero sense unless you copy a whole phrase which isn't speaking, it's mimicing.