Kanji #514 stroke order and primitives

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Shirow66 Member
From: Sweden Registered: 2008-01-27 Posts: 50

I just came across the "drag" primitive at the start of chapter 50, and I was reminded of kanji #514, horse chestnut, where the cliff primitive has that little bent roof in its printed form, just like the drag primitive seems to have. I've been trying to find the correct stroke order for #514 but I haven't had any luck, so my question is, is that really a cliff or a drag primitive in #514?

Katsuo M.O.D.
From: Tokyo Registered: 2007-02-06 Posts: 887 Website

This is classified as "cliff" (がんだれ) but in practice is usually written as "drag" (in 栃).

Compare the following kanji, which all contain "cliff" & "ten thousand": 栃励砺蛎

At the moment (2008), 栃 is not a Joyo kanji, but is expected to be added to the list soon. Whether the form will be standardized, I don't know.

Last edited by Katsuo (2008 November 08, 7:47 pm)

Nathanael Member
From: Alberta, Canada Registered: 2008-10-25 Posts: 29 Website

You can find the stroke order for many characters at 書き順 [top page]: stroke order for 栃.  This is the best site I've found so far for stroke order.  It includes lots of non-常用 and non-人名用 kanji and the list is growing every week.  It also doesn't have all the mistakes other databases do.

Just as a note, even it were "drag", which it is not, the stroke order would be the same as it is with 厂【がんだれ】.

Last edited by Nathanael (2008 November 09, 12:10 am)

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shakkun Member
Registered: 2007-11-23 Posts: 173

Nathanael wrote:

Just as a note, even it were "drag", which it is not, the stroke order would be the same as it is with 厂【がんだれ】.

The top stroke in cliff is left to right, in drag it's right to left. That's the main difference. In the animation from that link it looks like horse chestnut uses drag.

Though if for some weird reason you actually need to write horse chestnut, no Japanese people around would know/care that there's a difference.

Last edited by shakkun (2008 November 09, 12:25 am)

Codexus Member
From: Switzerland Registered: 2007-11-27 Posts: 721

Nathanael wrote:

You can find the stroke order for many characters at 書き順 [top page]: stroke order for 栃.  This is the best site I've found so far for stroke order.

That website does not show the starting points of the strokes, so you can't use the animation to tell the difference in this case. I will also caution beginners against using it for that reason, it's easy to make mistakes. (I used this site and learned many primitive wrongs until I switched to yamasa.cc).

What's interesting in this case is not the animation but the text description:
ポイントなど:
きへん、ノ、ノ、「万」、です

So they say to write it as two ノ (=drag primitive) instead of a cliff.

cangy Member
From: 平安京 Registered: 2006-12-13 Posts: 372 Website

my story for horse chestnut is:

Note: this is not cliff but drag, introduced in the book just before shield (FRAME 1853). Its first stroke is written right-to-left with a downward slope.

here's some stroke order links:

http://www.csus.edu/fl/japanese/gahoh/Japanese.html
http://taka.sourceforge.net/current/
http://www.users.waitrose.com/~potato/index.html
http://kakijun.main.jp/main/kensaku.html
http://www.yamasa.cc/members/ocjs/kanji … e?OpenForm

Last edited by cangy (2008 November 09, 5:08 am)

snallygaster Member
Registered: 2007-06-11 Posts: 98

This question came up quite a while ago (more than a year I'm sure) and the general consensus IIRC was that even though it looks like drag in some (not all) fonts, it's cliff (left-to-right).
Anyway, although I still think there are a lot of mistakes or errors of omission with regard to stroke order in Heisig, I've also been coming to accept that there are a lot of cases where even among authorities there is no one truly agreed-upon correct way to write certain kanji. This might be one of those cases, although I'm just speculating.
I would say this, though -- even if it so happens that there's no agreement over whether it should be cliff or drag, I think your stroke direction should be probably consistent with the shape.  That is to say, if the first stroke is on an angle (drag), you should draw it right-to-left; if it's flat (cliff), you should draw it left-to-right.

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