Thanks I got it.  Now I can not see where you can incresae the size of the furigana. 

Life is such a struggle.

Tobberoth wrote:

Learning words from context in English is one thing, every single one of us here is fluent in it. Learning words from context in a language you hardly know? Very bad idea.

I'll leave it at that.

Not necessarily. You can moderate the level on the sources of your input. It's possible to learn from context so long as you comprehend a majority of the words surrounding an unknown. The problem is finding sources of input that have the correct balance of known versus unknown. Oh wait...

I... see...

Anyone know where I can find a Japanese version of "See Spot Run"?

I am playing around with the furigana insert.

There are a lot of kanji for which furigana do not appear. Is there anyway to increase the number of kanji that the add-on can read and display the furigana for?

Tobberoth wrote:

Learning words from context in English is one thing, every single one of us here is fluent in it. Learning words from context in a language you hardly know? Very bad idea.

I'll leave it at that.

I'm with stupid:
http://forum.koohii.com/viewtopic.php?id=489

Do you guys get a few furigana that are over-sized and bold while the rest are a uniform "normal" size?

shakkun wrote:

No dictionary is a little extreme for me, but I do think it's completely ridiculous to say you can't learn words from context.

Eg: I'm reading Death Note right now, you seriously think I can't figure out what 心臓麻痺 means? Couldn't you?

I didn't say you can't, I said it's a very bad idea. Unless you know the context around the word pretty much 100%, there's a GOOD chance your own definition of the word will be incorrect, leading you to use it incorrectly. Comming from people who won't put japanese in Anki unless it's 100% from a natives mouth because they are afraid of developing unnatural Japanese, it sounds very odd when they say they learn words from context even when they aren't very good at Japanese. It's the same thing, you're setting yourself up to speak unnatural and incorrect Japanese.

Tobberoth wrote:

I didn't say you can't, I said it's a very bad idea. Unless you know the context around the word pretty much 100%, there's a GOOD chance your own definition of the word will be incorrect, leading you to use it incorrectly. Comming from people who won't put japanese in Anki unless it's 100% from a natives mouth because they are afraid of developing unnatural Japanese, it sounds very odd when they say they learn words from context even when they aren't very good at Japanese. It's the same thing, you're setting yourself up to speak unnatural and incorrect Japanese.

Dude, input before output means this problem doesn't exist.

Besides, why would we even be trying to give words English meanings or definitions in our head? That kind of subverts the point. You're supposed to see how words are used in context, not try and giving them meanings. Even when you use a J-J dic, you're supposed to understand, not give them meanings. Giving a meaning to something means assigning it an English word. Because we can't give a Japanese meaning to something. We can only try to understand it.

You know what? I have no idea what "subverts" means. Never even looked it up. But bam, I just used it perfectly. Probably because I've seen it used enough in context to know how to use it and what feel it would give the sentence. I learned English fine by learning from context, and continue to do so. For example, I never look up words in English, even completely unknown words. Instead of giving it a meaning and trying to use the word weirdly, you get a direct feel for the word. Case in point > subvert.

And don't even try to tell me that having a definition, English or Japanese, tells you how to use a word. It doesn't. The reason people speak unnaturally in a foreign language is because they try to use the foreign words like they would in their native language, which doesn't work. Even if you look things up in a J-J dic, it doesn't resolve the problem. Because the only way to know how to use a word, is to see it in context. And let me tell you something, we're using the same context.

Last edited by alyks (2008 October 29, 12:05 pm)

You're wrong on so many points.

1. I never said you should give it an English meaning. I said you should understand it. Let's say I give you the sentence "この車はＯＯＯです。" Of course, 000 in this case is a word you don't know. Do you simply GUESS that it means whatever you want and consider it learned from context? Even when you have no idea? It could be a color, it could be something about how cool or fast it is, it could have to do with the price of it etc etc etc. Fact: You have no idea. The context didn't tell you anything. Next time you talk about a car and use that word, the guy looks at you as if you're crazy "No, that car isn't pink..... it's red."
2. A definition doesn't tell you how to use a word, it explains it to you so you understand it. You then use context to learn where it should be used.
3. You're talking about your motherlanguage, as I said there's a HUGE difference in your understanding from context in your mothertongue and in Japanese. When you speak Japanese fluently, if you want to stop using dictionaries, that's your choice. But you aren't even close to that good at Japanese yet, you can't claim you have full understanding of the context at all times, which is why you shouldn't base your full understanding on it.
4. How many times do you need to see a word in context before you consider it learned? What if you're reading a book and some words you don't know come up in a sentence? Do you simply ignore that sentence and think "who cares, I'll see it in context again in 2 months, I'll understand it then"?

Do I look up Swedish words in a dictionary? Hell no. Do I look up English words? Yes, if they are hard enough and I rarely see them used (subvert is a great example, I looked it up on dictionary.com right away. If you want to know, it means to overthrow or corrupt.) In Japanese? Always. I don't consider myself able to use a word unless I fully know what it means. For example, I've used せっかく a lot, I know exactly how it's used, but I honestly had no idea what it meant, I thought it meant "finally" or "at last", because that's how it's translated to English. You know what? It doesn't mean that at all, and I'm glad I looked it up so I now have a new level of understanding.

Last edited by Tobberoth (2008 October 29, 1:16 pm)

I can't think that looking up a word in the dictionary is nocive at all.

But you can't ilude yourself that just have to look up the word in the J->E dictionary and the work is done. Only 1/3 of the work will be done.

Even if you do it by using the kokugo, you'll have 2/3 of the work done.

After that you still have to get that "natural understanding" that only comes with the knowledge of the usage.

But anyway, I can totaly understand what Alyks wants to say. You must give yourself oportunities to learn from context, for a few reasons:

1) It is fun.
2) It is challenging, so it is more fun.
3) You won't be using the dictionary. Not only it is more practical, but you'll feel proud of yourself.

Last edited by mentat_kgs (2008 October 29, 1:31 pm)

So we are concluding that:

Learning words from not only it can be done. But is nice and fun to do it.
But if doubts remain, you should look them up in the dictionary.

Sometimes the most obvious things are the hardest to understand.

Last edited by mentat_kgs (2008 October 29, 1:36 pm)

I really don't know what to say. I still stand by what I said. I suppose the only thing really would be that I don't assume Japanese will be any different from my native language and I don't think 100% understanding is necessary right off the bat.

Sometimes even I use my J-J dictionary, usually only when I'm really curious.

On context, this guy says it a lot better than me:
http://blog.feedmejapanese.com/2008/05/ … rs-really/

What I've been putting in my SRS are sentences with maybe 1 or 2 unknown words, and putting the context on the answer side.
Example:
Q:これからは、時々、一緒に・・・ 食事でも・・・とるか？
A:(readings)
<Sakaki's dad is talking to him before going to school. Later that night they eat dinner together.>

But I never looked up とる. Doesn't matter, either.

Last edited by alyks (2008 October 29, 2:12 pm)

You're missing the point. The point is to only have one, maybe two new words in a sentence. If I didn't know those words, It wouldn't have gone in. とる is the only unknown here. If I see it again, there's another context I can put into my SRS. You see where I'm going here? Words get thousands of different contexts, and we don't have to look them up. If I had a choice between reading a single book with 100% understanding, and reading 10 books in the same time, I'm always going to pick the latter.

Low hanging fruit. Easy to understand stuff goes it. Then harder stuff is easier to understand, then even harder stuff is easy to understand. Learning from context, even if you don't get that feeling of complete understanding, has a lot going for it. Especially when you have a huge variety of source.

Edit: And yes, he is talking about SRS. But at the same time it's still relevant.

Last edited by alyks (2008 October 29, 2:30 pm)