Kenkyusha Subscription - worth the money? - Reviewing the Kanji

samesong Member

From: Nagano Registered: 2008-06-13 Posts: 242 Website

To those that have a paid subscription to Kenkyusha - is it worth the 10 or so bucks a month to use their services? How do they stack up to the likes of Yahoo's dictionary, ALC, Jim Breen, etc?

Nathanael Member

From: Alberta, Canada Registered: 2008-10-25 Posts: 29 Website

I don't currently have a subscription; I already have an offline copy of the 新和英大辞典第五版 and some of their other dictionaries, but if I didn't I would have a subscription. As far as J->E dictionaries go, Kenkyusha is unmatched.

On the other hand, I only ever use it when I need more example sentences or am looking for a preexisting translation of a Japanese phrase. For learning I stick almost exclusively with the 大辞泉 and 大辞林 on Yahoo!辞書 for words and 学研's 漢字源 for kanji.

mentat_kgs Member

From: Brasil Registered: 2008-04-18 Posts: 1671 Website

Which site uses 漢字源？

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Nathanael Member

From: Alberta, Canada Registered: 2008-10-25 Posts: 29 Website

Which site uses 漢字源？

Sorry, I should have specified. My copy of the 漢字源 is offline. There is an online version of the 漢字源, but it costs about $2.50 per month. Unfortunately, I haven't found a free online kanji dictionary I like yet.

On the bright side, the 大辞泉 on Yahoo!辞書 has added kanji entries (e.g., 敗), but they leave a lot to be desired. You can compare with the 漢字源 entry for 敗:

Code:

敗　贁
【敗】常4年
[総画]  11画 [部首] 攴部
[区点] ①3952 [ Uni] 6557 [ｼﾌﾄJIS]9473 [JIS]4754
【贁】異体字
[総画]  18画 [部首] 貝部
[区点]補6332 [ Uni] 8D01
[常読]ハイ/やぶ?れる
[字音]ハイ漢・へ呉＜去＞卦＜夬＞<b?i>
[意読]やぶ?れる/やぶる
《意味》
　❶{動}やぶれる(やぶる)。戦いや試合でまける。[対]→勝。[類]→敝。「東敗於斉=東のかた斉に
敗る」〔→孟子・梁上〕
　❷{動}やぶる。物事をだめにする。やりそこなう。[類]→破・→廃。「敗事=事を敗る」「失敗」
「欲敗従約を敗らんと欲す」〔史記・蘇秦〕
　❸{動}やぶれる(やぶる)。形がくずれる。また、物が腐ってだめになる。「腐敗」「敗屋」「肉敗、不食=肉敗れしは、食らはず」〔→論語・郷党〕
　❹{名}失敗や敗戦。「乗敗=敗に乗ず」。
《解字》
　 会意兼形声。貝(ハイ)・(バイ)は、二つに割れたかいを描いた象形文字。敗は「攴(動詞の記号)＋(音符)貝」で、まとまった物を二つに割ること、または二つに割れること。六朝時代までは、割ることと割れることの発音に区別があった。
《単語家族》
　 廃(二つに割れる)・敝(へい)(割れてだめになる)と同系。
《類義》
　 負は、背を向ける、まけて逃げること。→破
《異字同訓》
　 やぶれる→破

I find the 《解字》 section particularly useful when coming up with an explanation for kanji I get confused or am having trouble remembering. Unless kanji are fun, the rest is probably overkill.

wrightak Member

From: Tokyo Registered: 2006-04-07 Posts: 873 Website

I'd prefer to pay less but there's no alternative that matches the quality. If you want to try it out, go to this address:

http://kod.kenkyusha.co.jp/demo/form.jsp

Then look up anything starting with 'a' or 'あ'. I recommend あし and then click on the entry for 足.

xenoleaf New member

Registered: 2008-10-10 Posts: 3

wrightak wrote:
Then look up anything starting with 'a' or 'あ'. I recommend あし and then click on the entry for 足.

That was pretty awesome. At first I was intimidated by the sheer volume of info, but then realized it was all straightforward. They had a nice diagram, too. Will definitely look into it.

samesong Member

From: Nagano Registered: 2008-06-13 Posts: 242 Website

Does the dictionary not support lookup by kanji, or is this a limitation of the demo?

I tried looking up 足 but the search yielded no results.

Nathanael Member

From: Alberta, Canada Registered: 2008-10-25 Posts: 29 Website

samesong wrote:
I tried looking up 足 but the search yielded no results.

It's the demo version, so you have to search for あし, not 足. In the full version, you can search by kanji too.

Tobberoth Member

From: Sweden Registered: 2008-08-25 Posts: 3364

wrightak wrote:
I'd prefer to pay less but there's no alternative that matches the quality. If you want to try it out, go to this address:

http://kod.kenkyusha.co.jp/demo/form.jsp

Then look up anything starting with 'a' or 'あ'. I recommend あし and then click on the entry for 足.

Wow, that site was nice. Not only because it's very very good for a Japanese -> English dictionary, but mostly because I happened (because of your recommendation) to look up 足を洗う, which I remembered to have heard in Tiger & Dragon, and indeed, it is mentioned in the dictionary as something along the lines of "a yakuza quiting his dirty profession" etc. Suddenly, that phrase in Tiger & Dragon makes a lot more sense

EDIT: Since I thought 10 bucks a month for something I'll probably use from time to time for the rest of my life seems much, I looked up what 研究社新和英大辞典第５版 costs on bk1.jp... a whooping 19 000 yen. I suppose the book is pretty big as well, so I assume the shipping will be at least 1000yen... A whole year of subscribing to the internet version would be cheaper... but then again...

EDIT: The 中 version is of course a LOT cheaper, 4 000 yen for the 5th edition... but comparing the versions on that demo site, the 大 version is of course clearly superior.

Last edited by Tobberoth (2008 October 27, 9:16 pm)

wrightak Member

From: Tokyo Registered: 2006-04-07 Posts: 873 Website

For some reasons about why Kenkyusha's dictionary is good, you may be interested in this post:

http://forum.koohii.com/viewtopic.php?pid=10911#p10911

I wrote a series of emails to the writers to ask where the example sentences came from. (If they're not sourced from Japanese people then they're not much use to me - like Jim Breen's Tanaka Corpus).

The other advantage of the online version is that you automatically get the most up-to-date material.

Last edited by wrightak (2008 October 27, 9:47 pm)

Jarvik7 Member

From: 名古屋 Registered: 2007-03-05 Posts: 3946

If you're gonna buy the book, get the EPWING version. Having something that is searchable and has hotlinks is infinitely more useful than a heavy dead tree.

dilandau23 Member

From: Japan Registered: 2006-09-13 Posts: 330

See this thread too:
http://forum.koohii.com/viewtopic.php?pid=15020#p15020

CaLeDee Member

Registered: 2008-08-31 Posts: 170

I have the disc version and it is good, but I still find myself using YAD (yet another dictionary) more than it, and that's free.

samesong Member

From: Nagano Registered: 2008-06-13 Posts: 242 Website

dilandau23 wrote:
See this thread too:
http://forum.koohii.com/viewtopic.php?pid=15020#p15020

You wrote such a thorough and important answer I'm going to paste it here for people too lazy to click your link?

rich_f wrote:

Does anyone here use Kenkyusha's service? ... $30 for 6 months seems a little pricey, but then again, I wouldn't have to type in the sentences. >_>b

A little on dictionaries in general. On portals like Yahoo and the like they are always licensed from a proper dictionary publisher. The Yahoo dictionary actually seems selectable via a link at the top of the lookup page:
和英
プログレッシブ和英中辞典 published by 小学館
ニューセンチュリー和英辞典 published by 三省堂

英和
プログレッシブ英和中辞典 published by 小学館
新グローバル英和辞典 published by 三省堂

If you are worried about a sentence in the dictionary, you could probably do research into the publisher and the dictionary in question to see if their sentence generation methods will meet your needs. Do to a discussion earlier and thanks to wrightak's super skills at getting the answer straight from the source we know that Kenkyusha has reasonably safe translations. That being said I don't really feel you need to live in fear of any published and respected dictionaries. It's like worrying about keywords for kanji, just a distraction from actual learning.

The sentence you asked about is correct but a teacher at my school said there is only the: "The deal sounds too good to be true [and probably is]" meaning and not the "When I found out I won the lottery I thought it was too good to be true." meaning. I think that is something you would be able to easily pick up on if you just read this sentence in context (far better than any dictionary example but I digress).

Now about my love hate relationship with Kenkyusha. I signed up for the Kenkyusha service. I signed up for the highest version. I do think it is a great dictionary but I also think it is a waste of money. They sell you access to a mountain of dictionaries yet all of the words show up just fine in two (four if you count the reverse lookups) of them. I have never once come across something I wanted not in those two. Those two are:
新和英大辞典(新英和大辞典)
and
新和英中辞典(新英和中辞典)

The second one is the one I want to draw your attention to. It turns out that Excite.co.jp uses the second one as their online dictionaries making it free. That means you are effectively paying a recurring fee for access to one dictionary. A dictionary that you can buy in electronic form from Amazon for the cost of a year or two's worth of subscription. So if you plan on using it less than that amount of time maybe I would suggest the subscription. If not then maybe buying your own copy is better. If you can live with the 中-ness of the 新和英中辞典 then just use excite for free. I can live with the 新和英中辞典. There are on average about 2-3 times more examples in the 新和英大辞典 though so again it is a personal choice. I will give you an example.

Here are the sample sentences for 若い in the 新和英中辞典:
彼は僕より 2 つ若い. He is two years younger than me.｜He is my junior by two years.
彼は年は若いが考えはなかなかしっかりしている. He has an old head on young shoulders.
若い時は 2 度とない. You are only young once.
彼は若い時から勉強家だった. He was a hard worker from his youth.
彼はまだ若いのに白髪まじりになっていた. He was prematurely gray.
67 という年にしては若く見える. He looks younger than his sixty‐seven years.
彼は年は取っても気は若い. He's old in years, but young in spirit.
そんな事に腹を立てるとは君もまだ若いね. You ought to know better at your age than to be offended at something like that.
今どきの若い者は礼儀作法を知らない. Young people have no manners these days.

And again for the 新和英大辞典:
首相には若い人がいい.　Ideally, the prime minister should be young.
･自分はまだ若いと思っていたが来年は定年だ.　I thought I was still young, but I'm due to retire next year.
･小説家の 50 歳は若い部類だ.　At fifty, a novelist is still ┌a fledg(e)ling [unripe].
･若ければその役が務まるということではない.　It doesn't necessarily mean that a young person ┌can fill that position [is equal to that task].
･若いときは二度と来ない.　We are young only once. ｜ Youth won't ┌return [come again].
･若いとき覚えたことは忘れない.　What you learn when young will always ┌stay with you [remain in your memory].
･君たちは若いんだから失敗を恐れるな.　You're still young, so don't be afraid of making mistakes.
･彼は若いうちから作曲家として期待されていた.　He was regarded as a very promising composer from his youth.
･若いうちが花だ.　You are at your best while you are young.
･そんな無茶ができるのも若いうちだ.　It's only when you are young that you can be so wild.
あなたは私より若い.　You're younger than ┌me [i].
･君と彼とではどちらが若いんですか.　Who is younger, you or he?
･私のほうが彼より 3 歳若い.　I'm three years junior to him. ｜ I am his junior by three years.
･このグループでは彼が一番若い.　He is the youngest of this group.
彼女は 80 歳だがまだ若い.　Though 80 years old, she still looks fairly young.
･彼は年齢の割に若い.　He looks young ┌for [considering] his ┌age [years].
･彼女は 65 歳という年齢の割に若い.　She looks younger than her sixty-five years.
･あなたはいつ見ても若いですね.　You always seem younger than your years.
･祖母は考え方がとても若い.　My grandmother thinks just the way young people do.

I say live with what is free. But that is just my opinion.

samesong Member

From: Nagano Registered: 2008-06-13 Posts: 242 Website

samesong wrote:
dilandau23 wrote:
See this thread too:
http://forum.koohii.com/viewtopic.php?pid=15020#p15020
You wrote such a thorough and important answer I'm going to paste it here for people too lazy to click your link.

rich_f wrote:

Does anyone here use Kenkyusha's service? ... $30 for 6 months seems a little pricey, but then again, I wouldn't have to type in the sentences. >_>b

A little on dictionaries in general. On portals like Yahoo and the like they are always licensed from a proper dictionary publisher. The Yahoo dictionary actually seems selectable via a link at the top of the lookup page:
和英
プログレッシブ和英中辞典 published by 小学館
ニューセンチュリー和英辞典 published by 三省堂

英和
プログレッシブ英和中辞典 published by 小学館
新グローバル英和辞典 published by 三省堂

If you are worried about a sentence in the dictionary, you could probably do research into the publisher and the dictionary in question to see if their sentence generation methods will meet your needs. Do to a discussion earlier and thanks to wrightak's super skills at getting the answer straight from the source we know that Kenkyusha has reasonably safe translations. That being said I don't really feel you need to live in fear of any published and respected dictionaries. It's like worrying about keywords for kanji, just a distraction from actual learning.

The sentence you asked about is correct but a teacher at my school said there is only the: "The deal sounds too good to be true [and probably is]" meaning and not the "When I found out I won the lottery I thought it was too good to be true." meaning. I think that is something you would be able to easily pick up on if you just read this sentence in context (far better than any dictionary example but I digress).

Now about my love hate relationship with Kenkyusha. I signed up for the Kenkyusha service. I signed up for the highest version. I do think it is a great dictionary but I also think it is a waste of money. They sell you access to a mountain of dictionaries yet all of the words show up just fine in two (four if you count the reverse lookups) of them. I have never once come across something I wanted not in those two. Those two are:
新和英大辞典(新英和大辞典)
and
新和英中辞典(新英和中辞典)

The second one is the one I want to draw your attention to. It turns out that Excite.co.jp uses the second one as their online dictionaries making it free. That means you are effectively paying a recurring fee for access to one dictionary. A dictionary that you can buy in electronic form from Amazon for the cost of a year or two's worth of subscription. So if you plan on using it less than that amount of time maybe I would suggest the subscription. If not then maybe buying your own copy is better. If you can live with the 中-ness of the 新和英中辞典 then just use excite for free. I can live with the 新和英中辞典. There are on average about 2-3 times more examples in the 新和英大辞典 though so again it is a personal choice. I will give you an example.

Here are the sample sentences for 若い in the 新和英中辞典:
彼は僕より 2 つ若い. He is two years younger than me.｜He is my junior by two years.
彼は年は若いが考えはなかなかしっかりしている. He has an old head on young shoulders.
若い時は 2 度とない. You are only young once.
彼は若い時から勉強家だった. He was a hard worker from his youth.
彼はまだ若いのに白髪まじりになっていた. He was prematurely gray.
67 という年にしては若く見える. He looks younger than his sixty‐seven years.
彼は年は取っても気は若い. He's old in years, but young in spirit.
そんな事に腹を立てるとは君もまだ若いね. You ought to know better at your age than to be offended at something like that.
今どきの若い者は礼儀作法を知らない. Young people have no manners these days.

And again for the 新和英大辞典:
首相には若い人がいい.　Ideally, the prime minister should be young.
･自分はまだ若いと思っていたが来年は定年だ.　I thought I was still young, but I'm due to retire next year.
･小説家の 50 歳は若い部類だ.　At fifty, a novelist is still ┌a fledg(e)ling [unripe].
･若ければその役が務まるということではない.　It doesn't necessarily mean that a young person ┌can fill that position [is equal to that task].
･若いときは二度と来ない.　We are young only once. ｜ Youth won't ┌return [come again].
･若いとき覚えたことは忘れない.　What you learn when young will always ┌stay with you [remain in your memory].
･君たちは若いんだから失敗を恐れるな.　You're still young, so don't be afraid of making mistakes.
･彼は若いうちから作曲家として期待されていた.　He was regarded as a very promising composer from his youth.
･若いうちが花だ.　You are at your best while you are young.
･そんな無茶ができるのも若いうちだ.　It's only when you are young that you can be so wild.
あなたは私より若い.　You're younger than ┌me [i].
･君と彼とではどちらが若いんですか.　Who is younger, you or he?
･私のほうが彼より 3 歳若い.　I'm three years junior to him. ｜ I am his junior by three years.
･このグループでは彼が一番若い.　He is the youngest of this group.
彼女は 80 歳だがまだ若い.　Though 80 years old, she still looks fairly young.
･彼は年齢の割に若い.　He looks young ┌for [considering] his ┌age [years].
･彼女は 65 歳という年齢の割に若い.　She looks younger than her sixty-five years.
･あなたはいつ見ても若いですね.　You always seem younger than your years.
･祖母は考え方がとても若い.　My grandmother thinks just the way young people do.

I say live with what is free. But that is just my opinion.

Tobberoth Member

From: Sweden Registered: 2008-08-25 Posts: 3364

CaLeDee wrote:
I have the disc version and it is good, but I still find myself using YAD (yet another dictionary) more than it, and that's free.

Why do you prefer YAD?

CaLeDee Member

Registered: 2008-08-31 Posts: 170

Tobberoth wrote:
Why do you prefer YAD?

There are usually more than enough example sentences, they are laid it in an easier to read manner, and it doesn't just have to be a word you search for. For example, you can just type in はずだ and get a load of sentences using the はずだ structure. I have tried doing this in the Kenkyusha dictionary but can't find any way of making it work.

I am talking about example sentences only. I haven't explored the other uses of it really.

Edit: I just tried typing はず instead and it did give sentences. Not many but still, I guess it does give them for grammar if you search correctly. Maybe I'll try it more often.

Last edited by CaLeDee (2008 October 28, 8:14 am)

Tobberoth Member

From: Sweden Registered: 2008-08-25 Posts: 3364

Ah, I looked it up, YAD is based on Edict and the Tanaka Corpus (same as Jisho.org then). While it's certainly easy to use and all, those sentences aren't trustworthy, many of them were made with English in mind (so the sentences doesn't sound like natural japanese) and some sentences even have grammatical errors.

EDIT: For more information on why the example sentences from Tanaka Corpus shouldn't be used as study material, read this: http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/tanakacorpus.html
Especially the part "A Warning to users".

Last edited by Tobberoth (2008 October 28, 8:16 am)

CaLeDee Member

Registered: 2008-08-31 Posts: 170

Tobberoth wrote:
Ah, I looked it up, YAD is based on Edict and the Tanaka Corpus (same as Jisho.org then). While it's certainly easy to use and all, those sentences aren't trustworthy, many of them were made with English in mind (so the sentences doesn't sound like natural japanese) and some sentences even have grammatical errors.

Really? I never knew that. It does say based on edict but I never knew there were errors. Hmm most of the sentences have seemed OK.. I usually only use them to get a rough idea. I haven't been putting them into Anki, luckily. So I should stick to Kenkyusha? Their sentences do seem to be decent..

Wish I could of seen that warning sooner

Last edited by CaLeDee (2008 October 28, 8:20 am)

usis35 Member

From: Buenos Aires Registered: 2007-03-31 Posts: 205

Tobberoth wrote:
Ah, I looked it up, YAD is based on Edict and the Tanaka Corpus (same as Jisho.org then). While it's certainly easy to use and all, those sentences aren't trustworthy, many of them were made with English in mind (so the sentences doesn't sound like natural japanese) and some sentences even have grammatical errors.

So, we shouldn't use the Tanaka Corpus. What about Yahoo's dict and ALC ? I am just looking for a simple dictionary, with sample sentences to be mined.

CaLeDee Member

Registered: 2008-08-31 Posts: 170

I've just been messing around with this, the one I'm using is Kenkyusha New Japanese-English Dictionary (5th ed). I really haven't given it the credit it deserves. It has everything I've searched for with a good amount of examples, even for obscure things. It's very good.

Tobberoth Member

From: Sweden Registered: 2008-08-25 Posts: 3364

Yeah, stick to Kenkyusha, their example sentences were made in japanese my japanese specialists in Japanese, then translated into English by professional English translators.

I don't know about Yahoo, ALC etc... I would think they are all more trustworthy than Tanaka Corpus, simply because of the way Tanaka Corpus was made.

CaLeDee Member

Registered: 2008-08-31 Posts: 170

Small question about the disc version. I can't seem to be able to scroll with the mouse wheel, and keep having to click the tiny arrow to scroll down. Any way to make it scroll just by using the mouse wheel?

samesong Member

From: Nagano Registered: 2008-06-13 Posts: 242 Website

Use the arrow keys on your keyboard.

rich_f Member

From: north carolina Registered: 2007-07-12 Posts: 1708

Just a postscript about online dictionaries-- I'm a huge fan of using Mycroft with Firefox to add search boxes for the Yahoo and Excite.co.jp (Kenkyuusha) dictionaries, as well as alc.co.jp, right in your browser.

Just google Mycroft project for Firefox.

I love the Yahoo dictionary just a little bit more than the version of Kenkyuusha hidden on Excite, because Yahoo tends to have shorter example sentences. (But not always.) Yahoo also requires fewer mouse clicks.

Alc.co.jp tends to have funky English translations, but the Japanese is pretty solid, and often it will have phrases that Yahoo and Excite won't have. It also tends to have gobs more example sentences and phrases. We're talking overwhelming numbers.

Goo.ne.jp also has a dictionary, but I don't use it much.

Kenkyusha Subscription - worth the money?

Index » General discussion

Code:

wrightak wrote:

samesong wrote:

wrightak wrote:

dilandau23 wrote:

samesong wrote:

dilandau23 wrote:

CaLeDee wrote:

Tobberoth wrote:

Tobberoth wrote:

Tobberoth wrote: