I'm not clear on what this is.

Edit: NM

Last edited by kazelee (2008 October 26, 7:55 pm)

kfmfe04 wrote:

CONS:
- VERY GOOD CON: the 36,644 熟語 doesn't contain translations!!!

Fixed for you.

Why not just pick up a copy of Kanji Learner's Dictionary. It has tons of compounds for nearly all of RtK's kanji along with translations of all of them, organized by SKIP method (with additional reading, radical, etc. indexes) and by meanings. It all has stroke order diagrams as well as some impressive cross-referencing.

Just because the title of the book is in Japanese doesn't mean it's better. Japanese books tend to be, on the whole, organized in Japanese ways which are often the fruit of time and custom rather than logic and reason.

In the end though, either or is a dictionary. They're references. Better to approach them with a plan of some sort already formulated and then use them to put that plan into action.

FutureBlues wrote:

Why not just pick up a copy of Kanji Learner's Dictionary. It has tons of compounds for nearly all of RtK's kanji along with translations of all of them, organized by SKIP method (with additional reading, radical, etc. indexes) and by meanings. It all has stroke order diagrams as well as some impressive cross-referencing.

Just because the title of the book is in Japanese doesn't mean it's better. Japanese books tend to be, on the whole, organized in Japanese ways which are often the fruit of time and custom rather than logic and reason.

In the end though, either or is a dictionary. They're references. Better to approach them with a plan of some sort already formulated and then use them to put that plan into action.

I have the Kanji Learner's Dictionary, which was very useful during the pre-handwriting-capable-electronic-dictionary days for lookup.  My copy is well worn.

I agree that just because it's in Japanese, doesn't mean it's better.  To me, this book/CD combo is not just a dictionary.  It will allow me to ZERK useful vocabulary via SRS, initially sorted by frequency/usefulness order; I don't want to lose momentum after RTK1.

I'm not trying to sell this book...  ...I just found it to be useful post-RTK1 and wanted to share it with others.  BTW, it was published in March of this year and as I mentioned before, it's being used at Waseda, probably for their intensive Japanese course.

Given the opinions posted on this board, some people may see that last point as a negative, but each to his own...

Last edited by kfmfe04 (2008 October 26, 10:51 pm)

alyks wrote:

Wow, are you just dry mining the vocab? Why not do it with sentences to learn grammar points as well?

Unfortunately, the sentences aren't on the CD so I will just study the sentences in the book.

I study grammar separately, using UNICOM's JLPT2 文法編.  I listen to the CD repeatedly, or the pattern doesn't set in.

Plain vocabulary is easier than grammar - I can dry mine those.

The idea of dry mining vocab like this is not a new one.
http://forum.koohii.com/viewtopic.php?id=1821
I am firmly against it.

Everyone is >WAY< ahead of me - I am not thinking of PRODUCTION yet!  Instead, I want to focus on recognition, for now.  The way I look at it, if I do this in "sweeps", it will be more efficient overall.  Just so people don't get the wrong idea, I have lived in Tokyo for 4 years now and can "get by" in basic, conversational Japanese - but I do make mistakes in production like Nathanael's example - these issues will be corrected, in time.

1. RTK1 (DONE) -> Production
2. 熟語 Vocab Recognition up to JLPT2 via SRS -> Recognition
3. A lot of listening/AJATT-type? -> Recognition
4. Production

Of course, this is not 100% accurate - as I mentioned before, I will concurrently study sentences in context (in the textbook), as they make life more interesting, but they would be rather hard to read/interpret, if I don't know the words yet!  (A little chicken and egg issue.)  I will read sentences for recognition/understanding initially.  I am also listening to UNICOM's CD for grammar patterns for maybe an hour a day.  To avoid getting into a rut, I also read some magazines and books in Japanese in bits and pieces for fun - not serious study.

I'm well aware of idiomatic expressions and grammar issues that can only be resolved through tons of input - I'm experimenting with that now, for JLPT2 grammar studies.  In fact, I find the CD in UNICOM's grammar books to be perfect - I went from totally despising those sentences into loving them:  it's tilting me towards thinking that I will do something like AJATT in 3.  In fact, if I can find a stack of CDs like UNICOM's for part 3, I will be totally set...

I agree with the part of AJATT that says immersion is necessary to produce natural/correct Japanese.  I just want to "squeeze in" more vocabulary recognition before I do the immersion.  The problem with immersion and passive study is, you have to do it for a LONG TIME and repetitively to really benefit.  It's kind of like pouring buckets of water over my head, but only getting slightly wet every time.  But one day, miraculously, instead of finding myself only slightly wet, I find I am drowned and totally immersed in the language.

Now, I could run Japanese audio all the in the background all the time ala AJATT (working in parallel), but I'm not sure that works well for me, yet.  Once I do that, I tend to slow down a lot in any tasks that require a lot of concentration.  Unfortunately, my multi-tasking proficiency doesn't appear to be very high.

To make sum this up, I think I can do a "recognition-sweep" of around 4,000 vocabulary in about 2-3 months.  After which, I will go into some kind of immersion mode.  The details of how to do 3. is still unclear at this point.

The common thread in my study methods is, I do believe that ideally, doing i+1, is the best for me.  The hard part is coming up with the resources or methodology so I can pick things up a-step-at-a-time, but do that step intensively and efficiently.  It's like in each stage, I have one main focus of study, and lots of little, smaller parts done in parallel.  I am in stage 2, but I still do daily RTK reviews, and I watch some Japanese television - I may begin to watch the news every day, etc...

Through enough perseverance, I think we will all reach certain levels of proficiency.  But I think due to differences in everyone's background and preferences, there may be more or less efficient ways of getting there.  That's why I'm always appreciative of everyone's suggestions.  The creativity of the hive is much higher than just the sum of the individuals - in most cases... 

Just look at any of the recent/live threads on this board - the suggestions of resources and methods of study is a gold-mine.

Thanks for everyone's input!

Last edited by kfmfe04 (2008 October 27, 5:59 pm)

I realized that finding "i+1" material is actually very easy: just look for something that you enjoy.  If it is too difficult, you will not enjoy it.  You may be able to get some enjoyment out of material simply because you are understanding it.  If this is the case, you may get bored when it becomes easy to understand.  So just look for what you enjoy and you will definitely learn from it.

saizen wrote:

i have been doing ko2001 and jlpt3+4 vocab lists concurrently.  The vocab list isnt that big with only 411 facts but i think knowing some of those simple words would help quite a bit (maybe more for the test than  actually real life usage) what u guys think?

Paraphrasing danieldesu, if it's not too easy and not too hard, and it's interesting, then do it!