inflexible forum post formatting

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Raichu Member
From: Australia Registered: 2005-10-27 Posts: 249 Website

While I like the look and feel of this forum (much better than some others I've had to use over the years), one problem I find is that text wrapping does not adjust itself to match the size of your browser window. If you shrink your window, the text stays the same length so you need to scroll horizontally.

Trouble is, I need to zoom up the text size so I can read it without having to put glasses on. That means that my browser has to be full screen so I can read both the posts and read who posted it. I'm hardly getting to know anyone's individuality here because I often have to cover up who posted what in order to be able to read the post without obscuring other windows.

The whole point about the way HTML and the web was designed was so that the browser can format the page to fit it in its window. Artificially setting the text width is a bad thing (IMHO). Forcing a user to have to scroll horizontally is a bad thing (search for advice on site design).

So... any chance the code can be adjusted to make formatting more flexible?

Pretty please, お願いいたします and nice things like that...?

Tobberoth Member
From: Sweden Registered: 2008-08-25 Posts: 3364

While I personally have no problems (I have a 22" widescreen monitor), I agree this should be fixed, from a webdesign standpoint it is indeed a no-no. However, I suggest still having a max-width for the text so posts doesn't get wider than now, I personally love the look of the forum so smile

cangy Member
From: 平安京 Registered: 2006-12-13 Posts: 372 Website

yeah, but in the mean time: View->Page Style->No Style

unfortunately, that doesn't work very well in the study pages cos of the lack of semantic markup: http://forum.koohii.com/viewtopic.php?pid=17165#p17165

Last edited by cangy (2008 October 25, 8:43 am)

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ファブリス Administrator
From: Belgium Registered: 2006-06-14 Posts: 4021 Website

What kind of resolution are you using?

As far as I can see the layout fits entirely on a 1024 pixel wide screen resolution. Indeed you have to maximize the window then but today 1024 is really low res, and so I think it's reasonable to ask the user to maximize the window if they use low res devices.
A lot of websites today are redesigned with a 950px+ minimum width. For example BBC News, which surely have far more considerations and user testing and guidelines than I ever had when redesigning the base PunBB forum.

Now assuming you maximize the window, you can zoom up the text size while keeping the same layout. In Google Chrome and I think Firefox as well you just press:

CTRL + Alt + Mouse wheel to size the text
CTRL Numpad 0 to rest the text size

However in recent browsers like IE7 the default is to resize the whole page, images and layout included (which sucks, imho).

If you CAN resize the text and you still don"t like it then can you make a screenie and post it to imageshack or something? Otheriwse I'm not sure I'll understand what the problem is.

Now as for using a flexible layout on a forum, I agree it is a good idea in general.
This design could work on a flexible layout. Creating a crossbrowser flexible layout is more difficult. One thing I don't like about flexible layouts is that it can look bad when it's too wide or too small. You have to use tricks to make min and max widths and make it work in IE6!
`

Raichu wrote:

The whole point about the way HTML and the web was designed was so that the browser can format the page to fit it in its window. Artificially setting the text width is a bad thing (IMHO). Forcing a user to have to scroll horizontally is a bad thing (search for advice on site design).

I'm sorry but I think you are quite sure of yourself here? First off while I agree with the idea of flexible layout I don't think the purpose of the web and the HTML markup had anything to do with layout. Formatting yes, layout no. CSS is really not a good language for layout and you have to use all sorts of tricks and hoops to get what you want. For starters there isn't even real "columns" of text as you can see in magazines. In case of a flexible layout it's quite a challenge to make fixed size columns next to flexible size columns in modern CSS and maintain compatibility with IE6.

I could work on that but I have to admit I'm not fully convinced in the one hand and I don't have much incentive to do that right now, I'm busy redesigning the homepage and then the rest of the main site.

cangy wrote:

unfortunately, that doesn't work very well in the study pages cos of the lack of semantic markup

I could put some paragraphs in place of DIVs but other than that what are your suggestions?

ファブリス Administrator
From: Belgium Registered: 2006-06-14 Posts: 4021 Website

Ok, gotcha. In Firefox 3 they used the same default for zoom that in IE7, where the whole page is resized, graphics included. That is totally dumb, imho, since like you said you then have to scroll to read the page.

In Firefox 3 now you have to check the option in the menu View > Zoom >  Zoom text only then you can use CTRL + Alt + Mousewheel or CTRL + Numpad+/Numpad- for resizing the text alone.

Now if you do that, and seeing as 950px wide is the widely used layout today to accomodate the aging 1024 screens and the wider monitors, the lack of flexible layout doesn't seem to be such a big deal. I have to weigh the advantages of the flexible layout (which are few, considering the options above), VS. the disadvantages which are
1- more complicated and difficult CSS for cross browser compatibility unless you don't force min-widths and max-widths; but then..
2- looks ugly when too small or too wide, and in fact.. more difficult to read.

Also the font size is actually confortable on this forum you know, that's a big pet peeve of mine too. 13px it is. Try reading this one.

stephan New member
From: Switzerland Registered: 2008-09-23 Posts: 3

ファブリス wrote:

Also the font size is actually confortable on this forum you know, that's a big pet peeve of mine too. 13px it is. Try reading this one.

But why even specify a pixel size? The browser lets me set the font size I want, why not leave it at that? Now of course your 13px are better than what some other sites use, but I honestly don't understand this obsession with tiny fonts. (And I'm 24 and have good eyesight...)

wccrawford Member
From: FL US Registered: 2008-03-28 Posts: 1551

In case you didn't notice, HTML is less than perfect as a design medium.  Many web designers refuse to spend years of their life getting a single design to look right in all browser -and- do all the flexible stuff as well.  Something has to give so that the designer can still have a life.

Raichu Member
From: Australia Registered: 2005-10-27 Posts: 249 Website

What I mean by flexible is that the text wraps to fit your window width, so that there is no need for horizontal scrolling.

However, even at full screen (1300 pixels wide), this page still gives me horizontal scrolling (admittedly it's only the margins that I can't see). But I don't want to have my window occupy the whole screen I want to see my other windows and stuff. If a web page needs horizontal scrolling at more than say 600 pixels, then that's bad design, but I'll emphasize that that's my personal preference. I know others have different preferences (and I'm pretty sure even my own web site doesn't quite follow that--my banner is 635).

BTW I like the Firefox3 zoom feature that zooms the whole page. I used to hate before that it would only adjust the text. After all, if I have trouble reading the text, then why won't I will trouble looking at small pictures? Sometimes images are even used for preformatted text.

Anyway, my point is that I prefer not to have to use full-screen mode. I often have several windows open and I don't want one window to hide all the others. And I need to zoom in so I can read comfortably. If it's possible to fix the code so that it doesn't require a 1300+ window size that would be appreciated.

dilandau23 Member
From: Japan Registered: 2006-09-13 Posts: 330

ファブリス wrote:

...but today 1024 is really low res...

I don't really have an opinion on this topic but I do know that a lot of netbooks are shipping with a resolution less than 1024.

mentat_kgs Member
From: Brasil Registered: 2008-04-18 Posts: 1671 Website

I think the standart resolution is 1280x800.

Reply #11 - 2008 October 26, 1:26 pm
kazelee Rater Mode
From: ohlrite Registered: 2008-06-18 Posts: 2132 Website

I feel now, like I am using ancient technology. My monitor is 20+' CRT. I use 1024*786 resolution. (though now I up'd it to 1280*1024 out of sheer insecurity)

Reply #12 - 2008 October 26, 1:45 pm
ファブリス Administrator
From: Belgium Registered: 2006-06-14 Posts: 4021 Website

Here's the top 10 resolution settings from Google Analytics for this forum:

Resolution / Visits / Percentage of all visits (last 30 days)

1. 1280x800     12,106  34.85% 
2. 1024x768     5,945   17.12% 
3. 1280x1024    5,563   16.02% 
4. 1680x1050    3,032   8.73%   
5. 1440x900     2,689   7.74%   
6. 1920x1200    1,304   3.75%   
7. 1400x1050    532     1.53%   
8. 1600x1200    461     1.33%   
9. 320x396      428     1.23%   
10. 1280x768    394     1.13%   

Interesting number 9, I think it's  iPhone?

Compared to several years ago there are many "widescreen" resolutions, especially from laptops. This makes it rather awkward to maximize the window on those desktops with websites that use 100% window width. For example, on my monitor which is 1680x1050 I always have the browser windows centered. But the extra wide space is great for IDE applications like Aptana/Eclipse/Photoshop.

?t should be noted also that just as there are Greasemonkey scripts there is also an extension to add your CSS file to a website domain or URL, it works with Stylish. That allows anyone to experiment and hack the CSS to make a better iPhone layout or fluid layout etc.

Reply #13 - 2008 October 26, 2:02 pm
ファブリス Administrator
From: Belgium Registered: 2006-06-14 Posts: 4021 Website

I tried editing the CSS in real time with Firebug and it's fairly easy to get afluid layout. It's juts a hack though. And it looks BAD as far as I'm concerned. I've put it on my calendar to work on next Tuesday and I'll try to publish a simple CSS "mod" to copy/paste in Stylish. You'll need to use Stylish with Firefox however.

Reply #14 - 2008 October 26, 2:48 pm
playadom Member
Registered: 2007-06-29 Posts: 468

mentat_kgs wrote:

I think the standart resolution is 1280x800.

Yeah, the laptop I'm using now is 1280x800. I would have got a bigger one, but I decided on a laptop with a 13" screen because I'm traveling a lot, and the weight makes a difference.

Reply #15 - 2008 October 30, 4:32 am
Raichu Member
From: Australia Registered: 2005-10-27 Posts: 249 Website

A point I'm trying to make though is that you shouldn't force people to work in full screen. I have other windows open, like right now I have khatzumemo and akregator and I'd like to see a reasonable portion of the other two. And like I said I use large text so I can see clearly enough.

I've been to many other forums and they all work fine at small window widths (like 600 or so). The text just wraps automatically to fit the window and there is no horizontal scroll bar unless you make it really small.

urrh... what are stylish and firebug??


PS Have a look at this web page:
http://drmoviemethod.blogspot.com/
It works fine without horizontal scrolling even at 300 pixels wide.

Last edited by Raichu (2008 October 30, 4:56 am)

Reply #16 - 2008 October 30, 7:00 am
ファブリス Administrator
From: Belgium Registered: 2006-06-14 Posts: 4021 Website

Sorry I meant Firefox+Stylish extension, see the sticky topic in the Feedback forum.

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