Anonymous
New member
Registered: 2008-09-25
Posts: 4
I've just started on this, and pretty quickly I'm filled with uncertainty whether this will work for me. It just doesn't feel like the most effective method possible for me. Perhaps it's prejudice I haven't been able to get rid of. Perhaps I just don't have enough experience to actually know what's most effective. Or perhaps this way simply isn't the ideal way of learning for me. I'm not really sure, so I'm asking here, hoping that someone has some certainty to answer with, so I won't be forced to waste time experimenting personally.
What I do like about it is how it breaks everything into simple parts, and how it just focuses on one meaning, as context will help with the rest. But what I dislike is the imagination part. The stories become as hard, if not harder, to remember than the kanji themselves. "3 x 日 = sparkle" is much easier than imagining a sparkling diamond reflecting the sunlight in 3 directions.
So I'm wondering, do I need just need to try more? Will the kanji become so complex that I'll find the story-method more effective? Or is the method supposed to be open to interpretation, so that I can make it suit my own preferred methods better?
I have no idea if it changes anything, but I thought I'd add that I learned hiragana in around 4-5 hours by simply attributing the sounds to the symbols.
Ji_suss
Member
From: Toronto
Registered: 2008-08-22
Posts: 96
I felt the same way at first, but as you go along, having a story will help, especially once the kanji get more complex.
That said, a "story" per se is not necessary for every kanji. Whatever helps and works is good. Three suns sparkle. Works for me. For some I use an image, for some a jingle or motto in my brain related to the key word, and others just go straight into the brain without any work at all. If you check out the "stories" on this site, you'll see that some are really involved and others are minimalist in nature. Each to his own, as long as you are not using brute memory of the position of strokes to learn a kanji. That might work for a few characters, but not 2000.
As you go along and get into triple digits of kanjis, you will be able to tell if your particular method is working by the number of failed kanji you get. The main thing, I think, is to burn some kind of image, scene, story onto your brain the first time you study the kanji. And then when you learn a more complex kanji containing that primitive element, you can just add that element's image or story into the mix to create a new image or story.
The method is designed to reinforce the earlier primitives as you go. Don't give up until you've tried over a hundred. It's then that the method starts to earn its keep. Gambatte.
Anonymous
New member
Registered: 2008-09-25
Posts: 4
TheSpartan wrote:
If you're just looking to prove Heisig wrong then at least do something that will work like Alyks' Movie Method.
Oh, and I'm not trying to prove anything either, just making sure what I'm getting into will be worth it. I don't doubt that RtK works, but whether it works for absolutely everyone is something which cannot be answered with the same certainty. But for now, you two have convinced me that bearing with it for a little longer might be the answer after all. So thank you.
Samsara
Member
From: USA
Registered: 2008-06-30
Posts: 33
I imagine that it's possible to just memorize them all, but in the long run it might not be as effective. Once you get more kanji under your belt, you will have more chances of confusing them. For instance, "perusal" can be remembered as retainer + reclining + floor + see, but in actuality what you'll have to remember is, perusal = upper left retainer, upper right reclining, floor right under that, big see at the bottom. And then you have "look to", which has similar elements but in different places. Or you might have two kanji with similar keywords and you have to remember why one is drawn one way and the other is different. (I can't really think of a good example of that at the moment except for the different feelings which are all vague and similar, or "fat" and "obese" which are actually both easy.)
Every now and then someone pops in on this message board with a similar question, and they seem to basically just memorize them until around 500 or so. If you go that route, and then you have trouble thinking of stories when you need them, just take a story from this site. Others have already done all of the imagining for you.
Not everyone's "stories" work the same way. If you're more of a short mnemonic kind of person, by all means go for it. Just don't be afraid of creating longer stories (or more vivid images) if/when the need arises. There is no need for your stories to be of uniform length and complexity.
Just like nest0r, I simply dropped the story for 湖 (lake) and remembered it as "water old flesh" (and later changed it to "uncivilized waters", after coming across 胡 in RtK3), while other kanji such as 叡 (sapience) refused to stick until I made up a memorable scene.
Edit: I believe the main reason it's recommended to use stories from the very beginning is not so much because they are necessary for those particular characters, but rather to familiarize yourself with the method.
Last edited by hknamida (2008 September 27, 3:18 am)
Nukemarine
Member
From: 神奈川
Registered: 2007-07-15
Posts: 2347
To be fair, even if we warn, not everyone will follow the suggestion. Now, what can happen is as time goes on, they begin to fail early kanji and later kanji. Thereby increasing the need for imaginative stories. For others, it just may be that simple mnemonics wark. For others, it will be a mixture of approaches. I've found all of our minds work memory differently.
Raichu
Member
From: Australia
Registered: 2005-10-27
Posts: 249
Website
I felt very unsure about the RTK method too when I started. However, no matter how much I tried, I couldn't beat the ~500 limit achievable by brute force memorization. I suspect there is something physiological about it. Our mind is good at forming relationships and links between concepts, less good at sheer memorization.
Anyway, a workmate convinced me to give RTK a go. It hasn't worked as well for me as it has for others. I finished book 1, but I only learnt about another 1000, so I only know about 1500. But that's three times as many as 500, so I can't complain!
I understand that coming up with memorable and imaginative stories can be a problem. Some practical suggestions:
1. As Spart mentioned, keep practicing and you might get better at it.
2. Use this site. It lets us up our stories for the very reason that you might find some of them catchy enough to help you, or at least inspire you to think of something similar.
3. Try and find someone else to try the method with you. A small group of us did it at work one lunchtime each week. Each time, we would start by revising the previous week's kanji, then share ideas for mnemonics (stories) for this week's kanji, and finally revise the new kanji we did this week. They say two minds are better than one and in this case it proved true.
Finally, Dr Heisig's method is not as outrageous or as novel as some might think. My school teacher gave us mnemonic devices for kanji or vocab but only on rare occasions. (I still remember, man = "a man uses his strength to work in a rice field", number/count = "a woman teaches her kids to count using grains of rice".) What Dr Heisig has done is to systematize the method and to assign a unique name to each character so that they can become part of your Japanese "alphabet".
Sam79
New member
From: Ibaraki
Registered: 2008-05-14
Posts: 5
"3 x 日 = sparkle" is really not a good example, as keywords and concepts are indeed becoming so much more abstract.
Using this method or any other, you will be facing the same problem: connecting one concept or image with a number of other, totally unrelated images. This problem is not new, the mnemonic techniques - converting facts and figures into images and connecting those - were used by the ancient Greek, probably much earlier. (For today applications, read for example Tony Buzan).
Now if I understand you correctly, the question you are raising is something people here keep discussing, too: how ornate, how vivid, how coherent do these storys have to be, will catch phrases do, and so on...
One thing to consider is that you will get a lot of training in connecting-totally-unrelated-items-in-your-memory, which is an ability we normally don't need (except for shopping lists, maybe), and of course you are getting much faster along the way. I am sure you will very soon meet complex kanji that will require real storys to get them sorted out - but a few hundred later, these stories don't need to be as detailed as in the beginning.
And as Raichu pointed out, Heisigs achievement lies in systematizing the method. He saved us an immense amount of work, because you couldn't do that by learning them one after the other, you had to have them all in front of you to create a system without overlaps and ambiguities.
Last edited by Sam79 (2008 September 28, 8:43 am)
Wisher
Member
From: Los Angeles
Registered: 2008-04-24
Posts: 65
Anonymous wrote:
TheSpartan wrote:
If you're just looking to prove Heisig wrong then at least do something that will work like Alyks' Movie Method.
Oh, and I'm not trying to prove anything either, just making sure what I'm getting into will be worth it. I don't doubt that RtK works, but whether it works for absolutely everyone is something which cannot be answered with the same certainty. But for now, you two have convinced me that bearing with it for a little longer might be the answer after all. So thank you.
You have to remember that the Heisig method is a 3 part method. Finishing RTK1 is step 1 which means learning all 2042. All you learn is the writing of the kanji with an English approximation as a keyword.
Then you have to learn the Chinese readings for all the Kanji that apply, which is most of them and why Heisig dedicates 10 chapters in the second book to it.
Then you have to learn the Japanese reading for those that have it.
In other words, you have to learn the whole kanji list 3 times over, each time adding something new, BEFORE you could even start using them. Then you have to learn to use them in compund situations which Heisig does not really cover. Heisig says, "Divide and conquer."
It seems long but it beats 9 years of traditional Japanese schooling.
