I agree motivation is important, and if you need to learn something, you will.  But you can learn in a relaxed fashion also.  You might need more exposure, but it's possible.

I know what you mean.  When I am in school, I see so many people frantically taking notes in class, trying to copy down exactly what they hear, but they forgot to actually THINK about what the teacher is saying.  On the other hand, I come into class, never take a single note, sleep half the time, but the time I am awake and listening, I am really focusing on what the professor is saying and really thinking about what he/she is saying.  In the end, I do just as well, and very often better than the other people on tests and have a better grasp of the material.  I don't think I am smarter than them, they just aren't engaging their brains like I am.  I think engaging your brain is a learned skill.

alyks wrote:

So you're saying... make learning habitual?

It seems he's saying constantly push yourself to keep your brain in learning mode. Don't learn inside your comfort zone, keep the difficulty high enough that you can't relax into it.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts thermal, I think you hit the nail on the head.

I have to say, after reading this thread, I realized that it's pretty true. I used to watch Game Center CX raws for hours each day, and whenever I went into RTK afterward, I would be beaming. Then I slowly stopped watching it, and now (even though I've been doing my repetitions every day) I haven't actually learned any new kanji in almost a week.

I think I'm gonna start watching Game Center CX again.

I think you got the right word, thermal. Complacent. You can't force english trought their throats.

cracky wrote:

I do agree with some points but I disagree overall.  I'm able to retain the most when I can have a clear head and focus on every new thing I'm learning.  I retain the least when I am straining or struggling.  It's nice we have stuff like anki now to check our personal performance over long periods of time.

Sorry, I think my overall meaning wasn't so clear.

If you are focusing on every new thing you are learning then this is the really good study that I am talking about. I consider this straining as you are putting in the maximum effort you can into your study.

As an example I study from audio to kanji sentences and vice versa. Sometimes I notice that I am just listening for the words in the audio that are new and testing I understand the meaning and kanji whilst ignoring the meaning of the sentence. I am trying to do the minimum amount of effort possible to get through the cards. This results in the minimum amount of learning overall and I am not pushing myself. If I notice it I then either take a break or knuckle down so as to make sure I am really trying hard. This is when I think the brain really remembers and adapts to it's inadequacy. You could equally call this focusing I think.

It's like trying to improve as a pitcher throwing a ball. If you only half heatedly throw the ball each time, even if you fail, you won't improve so much. But if you always throw trying to be as accurate as possible, really straining to do it well, this is when the fast progress can occur. As despite your best effort, you are communicating to your body that you are inadequate.

So I think people need to pay attention to the tone of their study and adjust it when necessary (reading AJATT does it for me).

Also failing is a great motivator. I changed jobs about 4 months ago and as part of my new job I have to evaluate potential students and sometimes communicate my evaulation in Japanese to staff trying to enlist the students. This has been stressful and sometimes difficult for me. This is not idle chatting with friends, this is a busy work place and I need to be accurate and clear. I have had to try really hard with this. It's been great.

Last edited by thermal (2008 September 19, 9:29 pm)

Although I'm wary of doing a one for one comparison of mental to physical training, there's merit in what's being discussed in this thread. Motivation is very quirky and changes from person to person. Likewise, putting the body (or mind) in discomfort (exercise, studying) causes the body to react.

However, if we want to compare physical and mental, take the CrossFit.com theory of exercising. Their idea is General Physical Fitness. No day is ever the same as the last, everyday you measure how well you did. Example: Monday you do in 100 pull-ups, 200 push-ups and 300 air squats as fast as you can (try for under 20 minutes). Tuesday you find the max weight you can squat 5x in a row, and you get five chances to get your max. Wednesday you run 5 km as fast as you can. Wednesday rest. Thursday Do three rounds of 400m sprint, 50 sit-ups, 50 back extensions for time. Thursday do 21 pull-ups, 21 95# thrusters, 15 pull-ups, 15 95# thrusters, 9 pull-ups, 9 95# thrusters for time (aim for under 10 minutes), etc, etc.

The above workouts take very little time per day (usually under 20 minutes), yet create a physique like the actors in the movie "300" (in fact, the trainer Mark Twight used CrossFit ideas to train the actors). In addition, you can do a number of physical events at above average levels (you're not outstanding in any one thing, but are great at many things). Diet was very important (Zone diet, which is 40, 30, 30 of Carbs, Protein and Fat calories). Plus you scale the exercise to your current level (either reducing the weight or the reps).

How to equate to Japanese? Vary your "study" methods. Only watching Anime? Then add in Dramas, Music Videos, the News. Only reading Manga? Read a novel, the newspaper, the carton of milk. Only talking to school friends? Get on skype and talk to anyone.

With the above, you may not be speak as well as those that train just talking. However, you'll find you can read, write, listen and speak on average better than any student who excels at one area of training.

Keep it short: Long stretches of studying is like long distance running. Completely useless for training. Short bursts of intense training creates a body that'll adapt quickly to long haul events. However, with the mind, I think it's 30 minutes on, 10 minutes off for a couple of hours.

Diet, rest and exercise are important to learning Japanese. A healthy mind needs food, water, and blood flow. Stop downing the  Mountain Dew and Cheetos.

Take a day off every so often from intense studying. You mind needs to recover like anything else.

Track your results. Write down your sentences, your kanji, track how many sentences or words you can remember over a month's time (the mature cards in Anki). It's not how many sentences you have, it's how many you've internalized that'll matter.

Keep adding pressure. Imagine if you only did variants of Watashi wa gakusei desu. You're not going to be fluent. Throw on just a little more every day so your mind cannot adjust. Not so much that your mind cannot push back though. Keep that +1 concept in play.

Sorry, got long winded there. Good thread topic.

@Nukemarine

Very very true. I think looking after ourselves physically and also emotionally are crucial to study. In particular I think it is important to not evaluate yourself on your ability to speak Japanese. To be honest I used to feel bad about myself when I failed in some situation and conversely feel good about myself when I succeeded.

Now I am more chill about it. Of course I feel happy when I have a good experience with Japanese, but it's not so important to my self esteem anymore.

@leosmith

Very true there is such a thing as too much challenge. I think you want to be careful when adding sentences that they are a good level for you. However, its great to get your ass kicked every now and again. Watch a movie with no subtitles, go out with Japanese friends without your dictionary. Somehow I think being thrown in the deep end keeps you from getting a big head about your level and inspires you to improve further.

Really? I hadn't gotten that from Khatzu. Check out the FAQ under "Joseph Bloggs at www.howtoreallylearnjapanesemothertrucker.com says your method sucks and Stephen Krashen has cooties".

thermal wrote:

However, its great to get your ass kicked every now and again. Watch a movie with no subtitles, go out with Japanese friends without your dictionary. Somehow I think being thrown in the deep end keeps you from getting a big head about your level and inspires you to improve further.

Sure. And I might add stop spending such a high percentage of your study time with flashcards. Get a skype language partner, read a reader, listen to a podcast, write a love letter to your Japanese girlfriend, etc.

thermal wrote:

Really? I hadn't gotten that from Khatzu. Check out the FAQ under "Joseph Bloggs at www.howtoreallylearnjapanesemothertrucker.com says your method sucks and Stephen Krashen has cooties".

The title was funny. I tried to find the source of the criticism, but failed. Is there such a blog, or was he just making one up as an example? Anyway, he made it sound like someone attacked his method from a linguistics standpoint, and he goes on to say that it's essentially a waste of time to compare methods when we could be studying. Then he says methods don't matter, etc, etc.

But as a whole, the blog is chocked full of "my method is best, your method sucks" comments. And he's pretty aggressive about asking for donations. That's why I get that feeling. Little disclaimers here and there, like the example you gave, don't change the tone of the blog for me.

thermal wrote:

If you are focusing on every new thing you are learning then this is the really good study that I am talking about. I consider this straining as you are putting in the maximum effort you can into your study.

As an example I study from audio to kanji sentences and vice versa. Sometimes I notice that I am just listening for the words in the audio that are new and testing I understand the meaning and kanji whilst ignoring the meaning of the sentence. I am trying to do the minimum amount of effort possible to get through the cards. This results in the minimum amount of learning overall and I am not pushing myself. If I notice it I then either take a break or knuckle down so as to make sure I am really trying hard. This is when I think the brain really remembers and adapts to it's inadequacy. You could equally call this focusing I think.

Oh, thanks for explaining it more.  I agree then, this is a pretty similar to what I do. 

The only thing I really am against is studying when you are already mentally exhausted.  There are some times when you just aren't getting good results no matter how hard you try. 

I personally don't look at focusing as working out but more of just creating the connections and such you need to recall these things.  True it is stressful, but I think it's more of a direct cause and effect than the stress telling your brain it needs to work harder.