Massive Japanese exposure vs. massive sentence mining

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alyks Member
From: Arizona Registered: 2008-05-31 Posts: 914 Website

A combination of Khatzumoto's new posts, some Glowingfaceman reading, and just a bit of experience with the immersion has inspired me to write about this.

After I finished my Movie Method, I've been looking for a way to efficiently use the community projects to my advantage. But the biggest problem is they seem to promote "studying" the language over "reading" the language. As I, and several other members have pointed out, you can't just "dump" them all into anki. If you wanted to go through Tae Kim, for instance, you would have to read and understand the articles before importing the sentences.

But think of it this way: Khatzumoto advocates constant immersion as a source of sentences, and then understand as much as you can from that. While on the other hand, the mined sentences promote understanding before exposure/mix. What does this mean? It means that either way will work. Constant study, either way, will lead to fluency eventually.

With that in mind, I've been trying something new. I call it, the "Dumping/mass exposure method". I've been looking at anki not as a review tool (though still used that way) but rather as an "exposure tool". I've mass imported over 300 sentences and learn them/understand them on the spot when they appear. It's been working out pretty well.

What effect has it had? Since my philosophy isn't so much to "study the language" as it is to expose myself to so much Japanese I-will-go-insane, I think it's a more efficient way to bring the learning by exposure to beginners (myself) where real immersion is too difficult. I also think it's more fun. I mean, I was putting off putting in sentences because I hadn't learned/read the accompanying text, or because it was so frustrating to try and understand a "real" Japanese sentence.

What does that mean? It means we can keep the benefit of the incremental learning you get from things like UBJG, while throwing out the boring textbook study that so many people feel they need to do to get past the beginner stage. But it also means you'd be more attached to the srs deck. (But Glowingfaceman has a very good solution to this, and there is a a very good plugin to help.)

But what does that mean for you? It means that people are too focused on sentences and not immersion. It means people need to stop learning Japanese and start reading Japanese. But ultimately, it means... do whatever you want. It's all good, this is just one guy's method.

walexander5 Member
From: Raleigh, NC Registered: 2008-05-24 Posts: 10

Correct me if i'm wrong, but it sounds like what youre proposing is something along the lines of the SuperMemo feature Incremental Reading (http://www.supermemo.com/help/read.htm).  It exposes you to new learning material in chunks that you process and then are expected convert into SRS questions.  I heard of a guy on some blog using it to pass JLPT Lvl2 in (I think) 6 months, by loading grammar points into it.

I dont mean to hijack the thread, but I had been wondering about this for awhile.  I has anyone used the feature and noticed any results?  And is supermemo the only program that has something like this?  I've heard supermemo is buggy and not worth the money, so I was thinking of trying it out by just throwing things into the SRS, which is what it seems Alyks may be proposing.

Last edited by walexander5 (2008 September 06, 1:59 am)

johnzep Member
From: moriya, ibaraki Registered: 2006-05-14 Posts: 373

From my experience, there are a few ways in which something really sticks:

1) Hearing something via immersion so many times that I wonder "What is this Phrase X" and then I look it up and learn it.  (Sometimes you can learn it just from the context in which you hear it or see it...but I find if I study it too, then it really sticks.  For example, I heard the word for tag a lot at school...I thought it was おにごこ but then I checked an it was 鬼ごっこ so now I think it is much more firmly in my brain than if I just randomly came up in a sentence in Anki. 

2) Learning something and then after you learn it, starting to notice it and hear it out "in the wild"

3) when you learn something you really want / need to say and then you get to use it often.  (often in conjunction with number 1 and 2)

I just went through a 2kyuu grammar book entering sentences into anki as I went.  I didn't spend much time pre-learning them so I think it is similar to the sentence dump you are talking about.  I found it to be very good at learning the grammar...but I think it by and large put stuff into my recognition/passive knowledge.  Which is a good start.  So now when I hear something on TV or at school or try to use the grammar speaking or in emails, it has a good chance of implanting into my active/production knowledge.

So I think, anki and sentence are great for building the base...then getting real Japanese exposure to drive it home.

So I think this is largely in agreement with what you wrote, just my 2 cents / experience.  Which should be taking with a grain of salt because my spoken Japanese sucks...I don't watch nearly enough TV or force myself to speak Japanese as much as I should.  But I do notice that when I do it helps a lot, greatly augmenting what I get out of Anki alone.

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timcampbell Member
From: 北京 Registered: 2007-11-04 Posts: 187

I don't see that massive Japanese exposure and sentence mining are opposites. I expose myself to Japanese for about six hours a day (it would be more if work didn't get in the way.) That includes movies, anime, manga, Japanese conversation exchanges, etc. From these sources I can easily gather 10-20 prime sentences a day. The best sentences are those that contain one or two new words or expressions, sentences that are just a bit beyond my knowledge and make me reach, but not so far I fall over. You can't SRS every sentence. Be selective. But keep collecting, and keep the language flowing over you as much as possible. I see these as tied together, not separate.

erlog Member
From: Japan Registered: 2007-01-25 Posts: 633

I agree with the people that say there is no "vs" here. It's just 2 sides of the same coin, and ideally you should do both. You mine sentences from the massive exposure.

phauna Member
From: Tokyo Registered: 2007-12-25 Posts: 500 Website

Personally, I feel that you need a massive input of grammar and vocab initially or the massive Japanese exposure will be less useful.  You can't really listen for words you don't know when you watch TV.  It's better to have a huge passive vocab sitting in your brain and then slowly to make it active through hearing and reading it in other contexts, and using it in speech.

So once I started doing KO hardcore, suddenly I heard all kinds of words which I hadn't before.  I began to hear verbs, and verb endings, which greatly assisted my comprehension.

You can't remember words you don't know, but you may be able to remember words passively known.

alyks Member
From: Arizona Registered: 2008-05-31 Posts: 914 Website

walexander5 wrote:

Correct me if i'm wrong, but it sounds like what youre proposing is something along the lines of the SuperMemo feature Incremental Reading (http://www.supermemo.com/help/read.htm).  It exposes you to new learning material in chunks that you process and then are expected convert into SRS questions.  I heard of a guy on some blog using it to pass JLPT Lvl2 in (I think) 6 months, by loading grammar points into it.

Man, incremental reading is nothing more than a glorified copy and paste. You can do the same thing with any other SRS. I'm saying you could import a massive amount of the pre-typed sentences and learn from them using the textbook as a reference instead. It's something a beginner would do who would normally have a very hard time with real Japanese. I'm just really against the idea of learning grammar beforehand.

Grammar needs to be something you're exposed to/get used to and not something you learn directly.

yukamina Member
From: Canada Registered: 2006-01-09 Posts: 761

I prefer to learn grammar directly myself. It's not like vocabulary...

kazelee Rater Mode
From: ohlrite Registered: 2008-06-18 Posts: 2132 Website

I'm finding a mixture of direct and passive learning of grammar to have more of an impact.

There are some things I would never have known without looking them up and then there are things where I can, somewhat, grasp from reading. Almost like when I was in elementary school. Oh who am I kidding. I never picked up a book till middle school and they all had very large text fonts 8) .

Edit:

LOL. The anki percentages est tres horrible comme ci. I'm deep in the red big_smile.


Double edit:

Wow. Can you input french accents on this site? I just got an error.

Last edited by kazelee (2008 September 07, 5:07 am)

phauna Member
From: Tokyo Registered: 2007-12-25 Posts: 500 Website

To learn grammar, the best way is to learn it from a book, then see it in context through sentences or reading, then perhaps try to make some of your own sentences first in writing and then speaking.

Then do everything again, reread the explanation, look again at some example sentences, and again try to make the structure through writing then speaking.  And again and again.

People are making it sound like grammar is unlike every other part of language, it still needs a lot of repetition, a lot of input and output.

Nukemarine Member
From: 神奈川 Registered: 2007-07-15 Posts: 2347

I find that doing sentences has helped my immersion. The more vocabulary, grammar, kanji, etc. that gets put in my SRS (learned and memorized by me), the more I appreciate the videos, news, manga, newspapers, music, etc that I immerse myself.

What seems to have really been a boon has been Japanese subtitle files for various j-dramas I have. I've been watching Rookies, Hana Yori Dango, Last Friends (very depressing), Densha Otoko and Zettai Kareishi. World of difference with the kanji subtitles.

Anyway, the point is that Sentence Mining and Immersion are not exclusive, they're complimentary. I'm not mining from my immersion (yet), but I see that it boosts the benefits I get from immersion. YMMV.

mentat_kgs Member
From: Brasil Registered: 2008-04-18 Posts: 1671 Website

Me too. Sentences boosted the little immersion I achieve. Also sentences from the immersion are easy and fun to remember.

alyks Member
From: Arizona Registered: 2008-05-31 Posts: 914 Website

Nukemarine wrote:

I find that doing sentences has helped my immersion. The more vocabulary, grammar, kanji, etc. that gets put in my SRS (learned and memorized by me), the more I appreciate the videos, news, manga, newspapers, music, etc that I immerse myself.

Word. I've been watching bleach all day and I'm just picking up sentence patterns/words left and right. I couldn't have done it without having been through half of UBJG, which I mass imported into anki and set it to show a new card every four I review.

kazelee Rater Mode
From: ohlrite Registered: 2008-06-18 Posts: 2132 Website

What is UBJG?

I confuse...

alyks Member
From: Arizona Registered: 2008-05-31 Posts: 914 Website

kazelee wrote:

What is UBJG?

I confuse...

Understanding Basic Japanese Grammar - it's this awesome book for beginners.
http://forum.koohii.com/viewtopic.php?id=1520
http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/bl … se-grammar

Reply #16 - 2009 May 31, 2:17 am
Nukemarine Member
From: 神奈川 Registered: 2007-07-15 Posts: 2347

Doing a Necro post on this as I have recently began to mine from mass media.

First some thoughts

These projects we've been doing over the last 18 months: UBJG, KO2001, AATP, Kanzen master, etc. are not sentence mining. These are transferring structured resources from the page to the computer.

Structured resources usually offer diminishing returns when you go through them item by item. What I mean is the first 100 sentences will likely be beneficial than the next 100. Learning the most useful 1000 kanji takes as much time as the next 1000 kanji. However, the benefit from the former is much greater. The same can be said of vocabulary and grammar points.

What happens is you can get into a cycle where you're wanting to cover all your bases, but you get to a point where you're investing more and more time for less gains. For example, it took me about 200 hours to finish 2000 vocabulary words from iKnow. Most of those words will be seen a lot, although I doubt some I'll ever see. However, to invest 200 more hours for the next 2000 words will not net me immediate benefits. Nothing new here for those that went from RTK1 to RTK3.

Anyway, last summer I started doing RTK3. Now, what I did with RTK3 is I stopped at 2500 kanji. However, while doing iKnow, if a new kanji from RTK3 comes up, I activate in my RTK deck. I was treating RTK3 as a resource that I didn't systematically go through, but instead called upon it when the kanji presented itself in other studies. Wasn't too hard, just write down the kanji and how it's pronounced then use Anki's search feature (or I used JWPce).

I am now doing something similar with iKnow's Core 6000 list. Instead of systematically going through each new word, I suspended them all in my iKnow deck. I am then sentence picking from a TV show (subs2srs use here). I go and get J-J definitions for words I know, and J-E definitions for new words. For the new words, I copy to a text file till I build up 30 new words. By that time, I pull up iKnow in Anki, and look for the words. Then it's a matter of unsuspending the sentence with that word.

Basically, I'm using RTK 3 and Core 6000 as a resource for new words and kanji that have actually come up when mining.

This is a personal choice. I could just as easily get a sample sentence from yahoo.jp or kenkyuusha. However, I like Core 6000 as the resource here due to having audio, English translation, and the likely hood of Core 10,000 coming out in time. My other thinking is: Core 6k (and later Core 10k) are common words. There's merit to memorizing words in that list. I'm just not going to do it systematically from now on.

The benefit: Actual dialogue. This is the one thing you're not getting from structured sources. That this is dialogue from a show you're interested in helps immensely. When I pick a sentence, sometimes there's not one single new word. However, that sentence is new and used is a way I would not have done spontaneously. It has a social situation attached to it (guy to girl, boss to worker, worker to president, landlord to tenant, at a bar, at lunch, at a meeting, etc.). It breaks grammar rules the right way.

Plus, I noticed something very quickly. When you "mine" a show, you slow it down to a snail's pace (sentence by sentence) and analyze it. So while I watched a show in Japanese, much of it I gloss over as I'm still getting the gist of it. Essentially, I'm "translating" the show, just without the English. With mining, I have to look at it and understand it and appreciate it, else I throw it out.

Reply #17 - 2009 May 31, 2:25 am
mafried Member
Registered: 2006-06-24 Posts: 766

Solid advice, thank you nukemarine.

Reply #18 - 2009 May 31, 2:44 am
magamo Member
From: Pasadena, CA Registered: 2009-05-29 Posts: 1039

Nice advice, Nukemarine. In short, you reached a plateau so you started using RTK and Core 6000 as an importance guide and a quick audio dictionary while picking stuff from real sources. And so far you've seen the best of both worlds: structured and non-structured learning. Sounds great.

Reply #19 - 2009 May 31, 3:45 am
vosmiura Member
From: SF Bay Area Registered: 2006-08-24 Posts: 1085

I find that the two have different functions.  The mining broadens what is understandable to me, while exposure broadens the window of comprehension.

That is, with mining I'll learn to recognize a larger number of words and grammar, and then with exposure I'll learn to comprehend larger and larger chunks as a whole.

If I had to pull out some reasoning from thin air, I guess it's because when reading sentences you can parse and consider every detail, whereas with listening that's not possible; it has to be processed much faster so it needs to be done at a higher level.  It's like different training for slow & fast twitch language muscles big_smile.

Last edited by vosmiura (2009 May 31, 3:46 am)

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