Tobberoth wrote:

as for knowing the correct stroke order of individual kanji: Not needed. Most japanese don't, so why should we?

Most japanese I know also know the correct stroke order. Knowing stroke order is very important - not just for your own handwriting but for understanding others' writing. Even though writing styles differ from one person to another, it's the consistent stroke order that helps distinguish one word from another. If you're only trying to recognize words in written material like books and web pages, knowing stroke order is not really important, but for production, and for being able to read handwritten styles of kanji its essential.

timcampbell wrote:

Tobberoth wrote:

as for knowing the correct stroke order of individual kanji: Not needed. Most japanese don't, so why should we?

Most japanese I know also know the correct stroke order. Knowing stroke order is very important - not just for your own handwriting but for understanding others' writing. Even though writing styles differ from one person to another, it's the consistent stroke order that helps distinguish one word from another. If you're only trying to recognize words in written material like books and web pages, knowing stroke order is not really important, but for production, and for being able to read handwritten styles of kanji its essential.

Not at all. The stroke writing you're talking about takes like a day or two to learn. Start from top left, go down towards bottom right. When a horizontal line crosses a vertical line, start with the horizontal line unless the horizontal line is at the bottom of the vertical line. When writing a box, write the vertical left side first, then the top AND right side, then the bottom. When you need to write something inside a box, do the first two lines of the box, do the inside, do the bottom. Stuff like that is all you need to know. Which stroke to start with when you write the "by ones side" primitive is just irrelevant. It won't make you write better and it won't let you read better, since no matter how you start, it will look the same, more or less.

Last edited by Tobberoth (2008 September 17, 10:10 am)

Yes, the stroke order is helpful but the primitives, stories and Heisig's comments much more useful.

Tobberoth wrote:

It won't make you write better and it won't let you read better, since no matter how you start, it will look the same, more or less.

Be careful with assumptions. The book represents the kaisho style, which is the square; printed style. But there is also sousho, the "grass" style. By the way this looks like your typical calligraphy class for those who may be interested.

In Sousho (草書) the brush writes several strokes before leaving the paper. Sometimes the whole character in one sweep. The stroke order then is VERY important, the character doesn't look the same at all. Even if you switch the separate parts; where the brush leaves the paper, the dynamic is different, because the very thin ends on the strokes is when you lift off the brush and move it quickly to the next area, and that leaves a trace that indicates the stroke order. Knowing the stroke order can help you understand some of those character when they look like garble; though for that you'd probably need to try a little calligraphy.

As for handwritten Japanese, it looks a bit like sousho at times, a Japanese person may use some "shortcuts" that you will find in the grass style. They are often logical even for non-Japanese, IF you follow the stroke order.

Of course all the handwriting "shortcuts" dont always follow the stroke order, some are made up, just like we do with the alphabet (like some people write two TT with vertical bars and then slash through horizontally; while others don't).

Tobberoth wrote:

Ask a japanese to write 左 then 右 and look if they wrote the above primite "by ones side" the same way both times. I bet most of them will, which is not correct.

Take a look in your RTK1 again for the primitive "by one's side".  So far, this is the only primitive I have seen where Heisig states that the Japanese have two ways of writing it.

Get the book.  It really does have useful information that will help memorize some things quicker and save you time, and time is the most valuable resource.  You can probably get through without the book, but is it worth the extra effort?  $20 is barely worth the time taken to post this thread .

Last edited by vosmiura (2008 October 29, 12:58 am)

@Kiajw : With all due respect for the man, this isn't Khatzumoto's site. This is a community forum centered around James Heisig's Remembering the Kanji book series and method. Can you find the copyrighted primitive information from the RtK books  somewhere for free? Good for you. I disagree with your post and I think you are considering the whole topic from a negative perspective.

Learning should be free. But unfortunately we don't live yet in the "Project Venus" world. These are very interesting times, but money isn't going to disappear anytime soon. For the time being, money is a form of social credit. So you want learning to be free? Essentially that means you want to get value out of someone; and not returning any other value for it. I think that's flawed.

Hopefully to end this topic here's a humorous rant called "Freetards and the FreeTardis".

From what I have read about Heisig, I don't think he cares if anyone buys his book.  Perhaps I am projecting what I would feel but he seems to get the big picture.  I guess I do kind of live in a bubble as I surround myself with friends who use all of their resources in service of others. So maybe I try to imagine others have the same motivation. 

I might be wrong but it seems RTK remained in relative obscurity other than a small cult following until the attention it got online from sites like this.  After finding kanjikoohii  and reading the free online partial book, I looked all over Kyoto and Nara and could not find RTK.  I returned to the U.S. and still could not find it.  There was an out of print edition at Ebay for over $100.  Maybe I was not looking in the right place.  I finally found it for free at the public library.  I still have only read a few chapters from volume 1 but ended up buying books two and three this year.  It is easy to buy online now but was difficult for me to find just a year ago. Would those who use this sight and have not purchased the book have done so or even heard of the book without kanjikoohii?  I would not have.

Mention RTK is not an indispensable companion to this site and the wrath of God will come down on you.  I am not sure why.  Will there be legal action if it is viewed otherwise?  I do not understand the logic if so.  It would be interesting to know how much of a spike in sales RTK has gotten since this site was started.

Last edited by bodhisamaya (2008 October 29, 7:14 pm)

I personally like the book. I actually bought all 3 of the books + Heisig's set of flashcards long before I ever found this website.

I take the book along with me, write comments in the margins, etc. Now that I have an iPhone and can access this website from pretty much anywhere, I have a good setup for studying where ever I am. I use the book daily to look things up, review stroke orders I have gotten fuzzy on, etc.

ファブリス wrote:

Can you find the copyrighted primitive information from the RtK books  somewhere for free? Good for you.

Kiajw wrote:

Actually it's offered on a website with his permission.
http://www.nanzan-u.ac.jp/SHUBUNKEN/pub ? anji_1.htm

Could I help clarify this? It seems maybe you thought Kiajw was talking about the whole book. The PDF download is the author's own offering on his own website. It is the intro stuff plus the first 2 lessons of Volume 1 -- 256 kanji.

Yes, the author puts it out there free which is a brilliant idea! Many people go through so many tools and books that are only mediocre or not complete before finding a few core tools that are so much better. It's hard to judge a study/referrence/work-book, even flipping though it in a store, when you have no previous experience studying the subject!

Those of us who already spent hundreds of dollars trying to gather the best self-learning library, even us who said we will not buy another kanji book, will buy this book after being able to try it out.

I was so impressed I ordered the book after doing the first 25 kanji -- I don't need to do the 256 to know I want this book! I already have some experience learning and writing kanji to know how much better Heisig's system is. I will use it!

As for how I learned about the book, I found it on Amazon, then found a reference to this site and Heisig's site in a review. So I guess the most influential factor for me was that download. But this site (and the availability of a free online flashcard application) was an influence. The very idea of adding yet another daunting task (the Leitner system's various boxes, not to mention the number of cards to create) to my already busy life was a dreadful concept.

esgrove wrote:

I found a PDF version online...but it was hard to get motivated, and I was always staring at a computer screen....My point is that the physical book can allow a person to connect with something in a way a display on the computer can't.

I printed the PDF. Probably shouldn't have wasted the paper, since I decided after only one night  (like others, I have basis for comparison) to buy the whole book! But for someone hesitant to spend more money, or if this is the first kanji book, print the PDF and try it out.

To me, this is the best tool ever, and it makes memorizing kanji very easy so far!

Of course, I already have been writing for a while, depending on dictionaries and a kanji reference. But I couldn't really remember many kanji, I'd have to look them up all the time. To a newbie, you probably will be somewhat frustrated if RTK is *all* you do. You need to write sentences, so the stuff sticks! You need a dictionary and a grammar book at minimum -- specially if you are like me and forget stuff you don't actually *use*!

I sent an email yesterday to Heisig at Nanzan asking what he would consider the most effective way for those studying online using his system to show appreciation for his efforts in writing the book.  Buying the book or maybe some other way with Nanzan?  His response was short and simple.

Dear Mr Bodhisamaya,     

thanks for your note. I am glad my books have helped you.  I do not really keep up with the internet pages on these kanji-learning materials, since my own work is in a quite different field.     

All the best in your study.     

J. W. Heisig

Last edited by bodhisamaya (2008 October 30, 1:47 pm)

Would it help for those of us who bought the books as a direct result of using this sight to e-mail Hawaii University Press and give credit to kanjikoohii?

Last edited by bodhisamaya (2008 October 30, 2:36 pm)

kfmfe04 wrote:

. . . has anyone noticed that the Kanji keywords are almost always the first definition entry in KANJIDIC2 . . .?
. . . I don't know which came first . . .

Heisig's book came out first. See these notes on the history of KANJIDIC