Keywords with virtually identical meanings

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ihatobu Member
From: Kyushu Registered: 2007-02-02 Posts: 13

My biggest problem using this system is confusing keywords with extremely similar (and often absolutely identical) meanings. There are A LOT of them:

discard/dispose, broaden/widen, remove/extract, tempt/seduce, sea/ocean, exhort/urge, transport/carry.... etc, etc.

I have no problem at all remembering kanji from the keyword, but I often remember the wrong kanji-- the one associated with the synonym of the keyword, rather than the one associated with the keyword that I'm being quizzed on. In other words, given the keyword "dispose," I'll produce the kanji for "discard." When presented with the keyword "extract," I'll answer with the kanji for "remove." This happens all the time.

I've been inserting cautionary notes in the mnemonic story flashcards whenever two or more keywords are similar, and I've been doing my best to create vividly different stories with distinctly different images-- but I still end up confusing the keywords. The more progress I make with the system, the more synonym keywords I have to juggle, and the longer the time between reviews. I find that keeping synonym keywords distinct is harder when more time has passed between reviews. It's not a problem with recently reviewed keywords/kanji.

Any advice on how to deal with this problem? I assume I'm not alone in my struggles to avoid mixing up keywords with identical meanings. This must be a common problem.

Last edited by ihatobu (2008 August 19, 6:35 pm)

mentat_kgs Member
From: Brasil Registered: 2008-04-18 Posts: 1671 Website

You need better stories. One that would only fit the right word. That will be important for after RTK.
For instance: transport/carry
transport => focus on the meaning of public transport
carry=> focus on the meaning of you carrying something.

alyks Member
From: Arizona Registered: 2008-05-31 Posts: 914 Website

Don't be afraid to give yourself a hint.
http://www.supermemo.com/articles/20rules.htm
Rules 11-14 are relevant.

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rich_f Member
From: north carolina Registered: 2007-07-12 Posts: 1708

Don't worry too much about it. Once you start learning the Japanese readings/meanings of them, the problem fades into insignificance. If you want to save the trouble, just write down both possible kanji when you come up against a vague keyword and don't waste too much brain power on it.

Remember that RTK1 is a quick and dirty shortcut. As such, you just need to be good enough, not necessarily perfect. The mnemonics only need to work well enough to hold open a spot in your brain until you fill it with Japanese. (I'm not saying slack off, I'm just saying that there are keywords that will trip you up no matter what, and it's not a huge deal.)

Zarxrax Member
From: North Carolina Registered: 2008-03-24 Posts: 949

I add notes to the keywords to clarify which kanji they refer to. There's a plugin for Firefox to let you change the keywords on this site.

sfekas Member
From: Seattle Registered: 2008-06-14 Posts: 40

And, to disagree slightly with mentat, some words really are identical.  Use/utilize is the pair that comes to mind, but I think there are others, too.  For these, I tend to think that if you can write all of the possible characters, you should consider it passed.

Nukemarine Member
From: 神奈川 Registered: 2007-07-15 Posts: 2347

Here's a good solution that I heard (have not done though). Use the plug-in that allows you to modify the keyword. Then:

1. Beside the keyword you'll put the similar keyword's kanji.

2. For ambigious words (similar problem as above), put a minor definition of the word in the keyword area.

That should take away any doubt as to what you have to write.

Last edited by Nukemarine (2008 August 20, 1:07 am)

Shirow66 Member
From: Sweden Registered: 2008-01-27 Posts: 50

Some words that come to mind for me are:

each/every   (I find it especially funny how Heisig specifically cautions against associating each with every, because the words are basically interchangeable)

chastize/admonish/rebuke

Part of the difficulty for me could be that English isn't my first language, making it harder to separate the meaning of the words. Also many of the keywords are words that while I know them, would never use in spoken or written English ever. My favorite one of these is "taskmaster". Has anyone ever used that word in a sentence outside RTK studies ever? The only taskmaster I know of is the villain from the Marvel Comics.

wccrawford Member
From: FL US Registered: 2008-03-28 Posts: 1551

Shirow66 wrote:

Some words that come to mind for me are:

each/every   (I find it especially funny how Heisig specifically cautions against associating each with every, because the words are basically interchangeable)

chastize/admonish/rebuke

Part of the difficulty for me could be that English isn't my first language, making it harder to separate the meaning of the words. Also many of the keywords are words that while I know them, would never use in spoken or written English ever. My favorite one of these is "taskmaster". Has anyone ever used that word in a sentence outside RTK studies ever? The only taskmaster I know of is the villain from the Marvel Comics.

I disagree about each and every...  Each has a 'do it separately to each one' connotation, and 'every' has a 'do it to all of them at once' connotation in English.  They aren't -always- used like that, but I definitely think in terms of each item in the set when using 'each' and in terms of the whole set when using 'every'.

I will admit that I can't really separate the others, though.  Chastize is a little more harsh than admonish, but rebuke?  I've never even heard it used, even though I know what it means.

Reply #10 - 2008 August 20, 1:53 pm
mentat_kgs Member
From: Brasil Registered: 2008-04-18 Posts: 1671 Website

Use and utilize are not identical.
Utilize brings a notion of profit.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/utilize

Reply #11 - 2008 August 20, 3:22 pm
TGWeaver Member
From: 大阪 Registered: 2007-06-08 Posts: 99

just look up the kanji in a kanji dictionary. duh.

Reply #12 - 2008 August 20, 4:45 pm
alyks Member
From: Arizona Registered: 2008-05-31 Posts: 914 Website

TGWeaver wrote:

just look up the kanji in a kanji dictionary. duh.

Well gee, let's look up some kanji in my Kanji learner's dictionary:

牲: Sacrifice
犠: Sacrifice
諭: Admonish
懲: Chastise

Wonderful. (I must say, using the Movie Method, the location based mnemonics helped slightly with this problem.)

Last edited by alyks (2008 August 20, 4:46 pm)

Reply #13 - 2008 August 20, 6:04 pm
chamcham Member
Registered: 2005-11-11 Posts: 1444

I think only mistake people are making is that they are associating kanji with a SPECIFIC meaning.

Kanji have no specific meaning, but instead describe a concept.

Heisig keywords are only there to help you remember the kanji. It does not
necessarily represent 100% the full range of meanings for each kanji. Don't
ever fall into the habit of thinking "this kanji = this meaning".

Even Heisig writes in the book that as time goes on, the keyword meaning will float away as you understand the underlying concept for each kanji.

Therefore, even if 2 words are listed as "sacrifice", it does not mean they are identical. Don't take the English meaning of sacrifice and then just assume that Japanese view "sacrifice" in the same manner.

It might be possible that they refers to 2 different concepts related to the word "sacrifice" in Japanese society. And it might not have anything to do with how the rest of the world views "sacrifice".

With time and experience, you'll get a better idea for the concepts represented by each kanji.

Reply #14 - 2008 August 20, 6:07 pm
iSoron Member
From: Canada Registered: 2008-03-24 Posts: 490

I've changed a lot of keywords. Even to the point where they no longer express to the meaning of the kanji directly. What's important is that I don't mix the keywords anymore, and can still remember the original meaning through the story.

The lesson about boats was particulary funny: I used nice boat, small boat, large boat. I would have a hard time trying to use their original keywords: boat, liner and carrier. The School Days reference made it really easy.

So, my advice is: change keywords.
Just make sure to check the indexes beforehand, and update them accordingly.

Reply #15 - 2008 August 21, 7:04 pm
mentat_kgs Member
From: Brasil Registered: 2008-04-18 Posts: 1671 Website

Yo, chamcham. You are so right. You dont learn a meaning for the kanjis with RTK. You learn the kanjis, attached to a "tag", that is, the keyword.
Learning what the kanji realy means comes later, while using it.

Reply #16 - 2008 August 23, 8:02 pm
ihatobu Member
From: Kyushu Registered: 2007-02-02 Posts: 13

Thanks-- this advice is really helpful!

Reply #17 - 2008 August 24, 10:24 pm
plumage Member
From: NYC Registered: 2008-05-27 Posts: 194

I haven't changed any keywords yet, as I don't want to keep track of them as I go and get into other problems. Rather, I've challenged myself to learn ENGLISH better to tease apart the slight variances in some of the more difficult words brought up in this post. English words can have huge semantic range, and though on paper their definitions read the same, we don't often "use" the word "utilize," it has a specific flavor that is appropriate in particular contexts. Finding and pulling apart the differences in some of these words helps to keep their kanji apart, especially when you construct stories specific to a certain angle the word conveys.

Reply #18 - 2008 August 25, 2:36 am
Nukemarine Member
From: 神奈川 Registered: 2007-07-15 Posts: 2347

I beg to differ, the keywords traditional reflect the meaning of the kanji it's attached to, if at all possible. There's a reason that kanji is called "car", or "stone", or "woman", etc. On some cases, kanji have almost the same meaning, which meant Heisig delved into his Thesaurus to get the next best word. Some, such as Hachi Flute and Ri and Rin and Nara are the best of a kanji with no English equivalent. Then there's ataji kanji like Italy and Africa and Asia. Those are exceptions, but generally the keyword reflects the meaning.

It's my opinion that you want to attach the concept if possible while doing it. When I'm doing reverse RTK (Kanji to Concept), I don't sweat getting the keyword right so long as the concept or meaning the kanji was known. Yeah, I'm not treating RTK as a means unto itself either.

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